There’s just no way.
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Would love to see azagorods main character/experience. I would be surprised if he even cleared normal with such uninformed opinions.
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Starting in Legion, this class has been an absolute mess. Which is crazy, because WoD was an incredibly fun time to be a hunter (MoP, too). How we went from my favorite iteration of any class to what we have now puzzles me.
Both MM and Survival have been completely different specs three expansions in a row. WoD -> Legion -> BfA versions of these specs are wildly different. While I have a lot of frustration with MM’s treatment, part of it is because they are cramming the entire game’s ranged dps fantasy into one spec.
It’s all been said before, but melee SV was a very poor decision that was made when the devs were hyper-focused on specs being mini-classes of their own. It’s the first time a spec’s role has changed. While most specs suffered from pruning and questionable design changes, SV is the first to lose almost every ability, including the use of their primary weapon, upon logging in on Legion pre-patch. It was incredibly uncomfortable, and the spec has felt out of place ever since.
Look at Shadowlands. We’re getting all these ranged abilities back, because they fit the class as a whole. Meanwhile, SV will use what… the mini crossbow? lol. As we return to a stronger class identity, it is glaringly obvious that melee survival does not belong. This is without even getting into the absolute disaster the spec is, considering it’s a BM clone whose signature ability is exploding grenades in melee range…
Going further, look at the classes as a whole. Since vanilla, we have never had a new ranged spec added. We have had melee specs with DK, monk, and DH. The melee role is very much over-represented. Even then, we have specs that are already often bad (enhance, feral); survival did not need to be added to that rank.
It’s wild to me that there are so many ranger/archer-type characters in this setting, but the ranged class is so uninspired. Without a significant change, this class will continue to be a design mess, and it is extremely disappointing to see.
For the record, I’ve played survival a decent amount this expansion as I did feel the need to give it a try. It pulled fine dps in Uldir, but was difficult to slot in a roster because it was yet another melee. Even then, Survival’s gameplay is mashing mongoose bite and ignoring serpent sting (lmao) to keep coordinated assault up. The only positive I can offer is that latent poison and wildfire infusion are solid mechanics, though they are held back by a terrible base design/rotation.
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Sorry, not compared to other specs. To other class. Compare vanish to feign death which will fulfill the same role in Dungeon.
Raid leaders often put pressure on those to go range exactly cause of that. But that doesnt mean they dont like and want to go as Survival.
That was certainly the case in the past. Now, less but still relevant. People will pick hunters to be ranged yes, but with an option to go melee as well. There isn’t much classes that give that option to go range and melee, let alone a spec that can do both which that, is unique among the classes.
Yes Blammo is one, which I happily used the ignore function on the forums. Doesn’t hide the quote people does of him.
I’ve linked a couple of hunter alts, I wont share my main. I know how trolling you people can be. Proof just look at Bepples, the trolls harassed him in game and in discord. There’s no point to put main anyway, its just a tool for the low arguments / troll to insult with.
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It was new, it was a change, it required adaptation. It certainly passed from a “bind everything on the mouse wheel macro” to “I need to pay attention to buff and rotation in order to properly do damage”.
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For you it was a terrible decision, for some it was too, but for the devs and players it wasn’t a bad decision… its a good one with plenty of opportunity and fun.
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The role hasn’t changed, it remains a DPS.
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The unpruned skills are going to be mainly ranged one obviously… because SV already has all the melee ones. The spec is hybrid range-melee. The mini crossbow is needed only because we cannot equip both a ranged weapon and melee weapon at the same time.
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BM is completely different… its a spec that uses the pet mostly. SV works with the pet. Thats a huge difference, one that you and a certain goblin cannot see.
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The majority prefer melee, the most demanded classes are melee ( DK / DH ), there could be a possibility of a Tinker class that could have a ranged aspect… maybe. Adding more ranged spec wouldn’t change much in the game… there’d still be an overwhelming amount of melee.
The change with SV was needed, it wasn’t original at all… Nostalgia is clouding your judgement.
What did SV had of unique really ?
- They had multiple dots spell that all had the SAME utility / function unlike Affliction where each dot is different.
- Traps effect / synergy - Yes, and it stayed with SV in Legion. It only got removed in BFA for unknown reasons.
Whats left ? The whole lock n load mechanic which is similar to what MM has now?
For the record, if you’re ignoring Serpent sting you are doing a terrible job as a dps. You need to head to sims, wowanalyzer and improve your rotation.
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/5HUf2Tq5MTUhmgRiA4Ar6v
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/g5p4DiFG7FWsQGHfrWRCAm
Hypocrite thy name is Azagorod. You complain about comparing the current aspect of the cheetah to sprint in another thread and here you are comparing FD to vanish.
You know what else is unique among the classes and was the core of all three specs from Vanilla - WoD, being a dps with a focus on a ranged weapon not melee or casting.
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You compare to have a change… saying they have a better version so we need to get buffed.
I compare to compare to say we have a better version in said content.
Not really a big thing now… compared to much older version.
Yeah… I would try to deflect too if I was caught red handed being hypocritical.
Funny that you completely ignored the 1st part of this sentence though.
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Funny how it changes nothing to what I said… its no longer a thing.
You don’t even do survival properly, so how can you say that ? Have you check the sims I’ve posted ? There’s still a few thing you need to keep track in order to perform.
The melee is player choice, they prefer it more. Adding another spec gives the majority more choices.
Actually focused more on the hunter identity with the change. The most common thing said: Rexxar. Uses the style of a modern primal hunter. Uses traps, range to weaken and fight in melee to finish.
It has evolved. Just like all spec / class in the game.
smashing buttons on CD with no synergy / utilities with the dots… yes what an amazing concept… not.
Affliction, Assassination and Feral did it much better. The spec needed to change, need something unique. Yes they could have added utilities to those dots and create something else… but they took a better approach, that of the primal hunter. A Rexxar. A versatile hunter. A unique spec.
It’s like he’s channeling a crazy vanilla hunter with an Int robe and 20 points in each spec. It just doesn’t make any sense.
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No, that can at least sense can be made of.
A noob is a noob. When I 1st started vanilla I didn’t even realize there was more than 1 talent tree and I know people who didn’t know you could scroll the trees down.
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It’s just hard to make sense of what the guy keeps saying.
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I know, I’m just saying, a noob can explain noob thing, him… I dunno.
That’s not what we’re asking for…
Considering how long you’ve been here, you must know that by now.
No you don’t.
It’s not an automatic “all-or-nothing” kind of deal.
Additional playstyles and fantasies should be added where it makes sense, where something’s missing from an existing class.
Quite ironic considering how much time and resources they have spent on the development of MSV…
How do you know that?
So why are you suggesting that they should do exactly that with MM? “Merging” MM with several old talents/effects/abilities taken from RSV…
The only “older version” there is of current SV, is the one from Legion. We don’t want that one.
What we’re talking about is not an “older version” of current SV…
The different roles-part doesn’t matter here as much as the conflict between differing playstyles, and the issues in trying to contain multiple ones in the same spec. Especially nowadays when spec designs are so distinct/focused an that one core theme.
Anything that differs from that core theme is immediately extremely niche and has a high risk of “feeling” out of place.
Whether that has to do with different combat roles or not, doesn’t really matter.
Stop being ignorant…
RSV isn’t an old version of current MSV. Current MSV holds no resemblance to the old RSV in terms of core mechanics, themes(how those are approached).
It doesn’t.
Combat roles are just arbitrary options for what you want to play as in game related content.
What matters is the differences in abilities/mechanics/themes/aesthetics, and so on…
If it’s about the “combat roles” situation then…why couldn’t they just merge feral dps with balance? Those fill the same “combat roles” so why keep them as separate specs?
(No, I’m not suggesting that this should happen…)
I can agree on the perception leaning towards this.
The point is…why?
If they have managed to continuously add more classes into the game where all dps-focused specs have been melee-oriented then…why is it such a stretch to consider the possibility of adding a spec that focuses on ranged combat(specifically on weapon-based combat, suing a ranged weapon), to an existing class instead of a new class?
Is this just an argument of “it shouldn’t be done, just because…” or what is the actual argument for not considering something like the idea of a 4th spec option?
Agreed.
Yep.
Still agree.
Depends on how you define “easy”.
Well put. Couldn’t agree more!
Huh?
Yep.
Speaking of opinions…
None of what you mentioned justifies the removal of RSV.
Even if those things weren’t just your personal opinion towards the old RSV but were actual issues(objective ones), then all those could’ve been fixed going forward anyway.
- The old SV "lacked things"
Okay, add those to the spec, going into Legion then.
- Wasn’t a complete spec.
In what way wasn’t RSV a complete spec?
- Was too similar to MM
Even if that was the case, that could easily have been fixed, going into Legion. Even if they had decided to keep the core fantasy of RSV intact.
You say this yet…what are the actual differences there?
Source?
Are you stating your opinion here, or facts?
2 Likes
It’s a class balance issue. While I expect you could find a 4th spec option for all the pure DPS (mdps for Mage and Warlock, rdps for Hunter and Rogue) and hybrids (sword/board DPS Warrior, rdps Paladin, tank Shaman, shadow-based Atonement rdps/heals Priest, necromancer rdps DK, rdps DH, rdps Monk), it is HIGHLY unlikely Blizzard would devote the resources to do so, trying to balance 48 specs would be quite a lot more work than balancing 36, and at least some of the 12 new specs would likely have some overlap with existing specs (sniper rogue/mm hunter, felburst DH/destro Warlock, etc).
Giving Hunter alone a 4th spec would be easy in terms of mechanically including the spec, as the design work is already there from WoD, but then you have to convince the other classes why we get an extra spec and they don’t.
Again, I would be in favor of it personally, even if I will likely play it rarely if ever, but I don’t think it is a likely outcome.
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All changes that have something to do with class gameplay, falls under this.
This is why I said that it’s not automatically an “all-or-nothing” kind of deal.
The implementation of additional specs/new playstyles to existing classes should be done where it makes sense. Where a class is currently missing something.
Meaning, lacking an option that provides certain kinds of strengths or weaknesses(as an example). Where a class is lacking something that has a precedent in the current game, based on the past, but is no longer there for players to access.
I agree here.
(Like below)
I’m sure they could come up with something that would work, though, the history of these classes(and current archetypes) sets no precedent for MDPS options in the game.
You would essentially have to dilute what those classes are portrayed as in the game, in order to fit something like the above into it/them.
Same as above, I’m sure they could come up with something that would work in itself. But how would something like that fit the intended theme behind Rogues, as portrayed in the game and it’s history and lore?
Also, what new strengths/weaknesses would such a spec bring to the table for Rogues? Not only talking ranged vs. melee here.
I’ve seen requests for this before, but how would it be anything other than a combination between aesthetics and mechanics taken from the existing warrior specs?
And again, what would be the added strengths and weaknesses? Compared to the previous warrior specs already in existence.
How?
Not entirely sure about specifics here but, isn’t that what Discipline is right now?
Again, how would it not be a combination of Shadow and Discipline? How would it set a new theme for the class? What new strengths and weaknesses would it bring?
Maybe, though, aren’t Necromancers traditionally users of lighter armor-types?
Sure, nothing says that you cannot go for this but with the approach through plate-armor. But I think that a lot of players who want to play as Necromancers, sees them more as the traditional Cloth-user or something closer to it at least.
How?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for giving players more choices in any way possible.
But take a RDPS-spec for Rogues, beyond the fact that it would be ranged, what would it bring to the class that isn’t already there? Talking mechanical advantages/disadvantages.
I can’t speak for everyone else here ofc, but I saw no problem with them giving Druids a 4th spec option.
I understood that there was a conflict of having multiple playstyles/fantasies contained within 1 single spec. And rather than taking one option away that a lot of players were already invested in, they decided to fully develop them both as separate options.
For the hunter class, there was no conflict…
Instead they(the devs) created such a conflict when they decided to completely remove an existing option(of which, many players were deeply invested in already), and replaced that one with something entirely different. Something with a core focus that had little-to-no precedent within the class, based on it’s history.
Don’t get me wrong here, I actually think that the class should have a melee-option based on certain archetypes in the game. I just don’t agree with how they did it.
Because what they did was the EXACT OPPOSITE of how they handled the conflicts of the Druid class, going into MoP. Where they made sure to cater to more players, rather than the few(like with the Hunter class).
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Because Druids could already do 4 roles, and their tank had better DPS tools than other tanks, while their MDPS had better survivability tools than other MDPS.
Splitting the spec (not giving them a new one, splitting what they already had) toned down the off-role benefit they provided, which made them more balanced in raids.
If your offtank is a full strength MDPS while not holding aggro, and a single (not even GCD restricted at the time) shapeshift is all that’s requires to change roles, why would you bring any other offtank?
If it isn’t, why would you ever bring a Feral DPS when they are objectively worse than any other MDPS?
I agree with the sentiment. My suggestion to fix this has been to enable the use of ANY weapon (2h, DW, or ranged) within the current MSV spec, which already almost fully supports it. That would let people see if the current SV fantasy (which has a very different toolkit from MM, if a bit too similar to BM IMO) is appealing to former RSV players, or if both the fact that it’s melee and the basic spec mechanics are turning people off.
Also, the idea of a survivalist using any weapon they can find definitely fits the fantasy.
I would agree with this certainly being a factor as to why you would not want those two to have stayed combined as one.
Although, that would’ve been a bigger problem going forward, rather than what it had been up until that point(based on class and talent design up until then).
It was obvious what direction they were going in(in general) with further defining what Core Specializations meant for each class. The case of Feral was no exception and if they wanted to keep both playstyles somewhat intact, they would have to split them apart in order to suit the new general approach of having Core Specs.
But again, this isn’t a problem that only occur if you have a case of conflicting roles. Specific issues might not present themselves in the same way if you had a conflict that involved themes/playstyles both focusing on the same combat role, but you would still see a lot of issues come to light.
ESPECIALLY, like I said before, nowadays where specs are so focused/distinct in how they portray their respective fantasies and mechanical themes.
Nowadays, there’s pretty much no room to have other playstyles implemented into already existing specs without either severely cutting down on the depth of the one being implemented, or removing a lot of what the one already in existence is trying to accomplish. Like you said earlier.
Does this mean that we should just forget about RSV? No. Because again, it wasn’t just a case of them “updating” or “adding depth” to a current spec(like what they did with pretty much all other ones, going into Legion).
That would make for a playstyle that is very dissimilar to MM yes. Although like you also said there, it would instead become something that is too similar to that of BM(I would argue that it is already but yeah…).
The only difference between that version of SV and BM would be what access each spec has to certain niche effects and abilities.
Ironically, current SV already has more similarities to BM than the old RSV had to MM when they decided to remove it.
If they add in the option for current SV to also go fully ranged, by intended design, we would essentially take an even bigger leap towards what the old RSV was accused of by the lead dev/senior producer in response to why they initially changed SV, going into Legion.
To some? Perhaps.
This is the case for me at least.
The fact that it’s designed to rely on elements of melee-combat combined with those copied over from BM to essentially make it another version of a BM spec(but with melee).
Again, I don’t want them to heavily alter current SV to cater to players not interested/invested in what it intends to accomplish.
We’ve already established how this approach to changes in design only serves to upset players. A lot more than what merely changing certain aspects of a current spec would do.
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