Why Stormheim didn't work as an excuse to start the war

Lore Story Forum
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With the ability to make Valkry at her disposal she can just keep bring fallen troops over and over again including herself and make more undead like Nathanos without worrying about the cost. And with that, death would have no consequence.

The DK recruiter you talk to states their grabbing dead bodies all over the Broken Shore to be raised as death knights. Its not really a select few.

Pyrogar its been explained to you over and over how it wasn’t to her own selfish gain. And I’m in no mood to repeat myself. So believe what you want.

Yes it can be effective. For every raised body that is one less person one has to worry about taking a spear to the gut like Vol’jin did.

Easy. This Lich King would be with the Horde. Having something like that in the Hordes back pocket would be a useful weapon against the Alliance if the continued to mess with the Horde. Which they like to do a lot.

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And just how do you think Val’kyr are made? Do you think they just conjured out of thin air? She can’t just “make” endless Val’kyr like the forge of wills in Ulduar can make earthen or iron dwarves. She needs a helluva lot of strong Vrykul women to convert, and even then not all of them are going to be powerful enough to become prime Valks like the ones’ she has to add to her 9 lives.

Also, you need to have something to resurrect, for example, a pile of ash and bone like Varian is not going to cut it and the Legion have numerous ways of causing those kinds of deaths. Heck, they’re the ones’ who introduced necromancy to Azeroth in the first place, you think they won’t know how to counter it?

Yeah, no it isn’t. Look, no matter how much sugar she coats her words in, anyone not blinded by fandom knows exactly who Sylvanas serves and it has been most certainly proven that it’s neither the Horde or the Forsaken. But like you said, believe whatever I want, so I will.

Yeah, assuming the raised soldiers’ body is in good condition and capable of fighting. Chances are people who had their arms cut off or were disemboweled are fairly useless to be raised, and there certainly won’t be time to stitch them back together in the midst of a heated battle against an endless demonic Horde.

Can it have been? Sure.

Would it have been? Not at all.

Especially with someone as incredibly short-sighted as Sylvanas at the helm.

Ok, no, we don’t want a Lich King at all. We don’t need another deluded undead ruler who thinks that Azeroth can only be united if everyone was undead under her rule. Cuz that logic is BS, it obviously didn’t sit well with us when Arthas pitched it, so I fail to see why anyone on the Horde is ok about it with Sylvanas.

You know what would also be useful in the Hordes’ back pocket? Moral Integrity.

That way, we don’t start stupid conflicts with the Alliance and have time to reconstitute the Hordes’ power and become strong again, without having to be evil for no reason or worry about the pesky Alliance on our tail, cuz we wouldn’t have murdered a bunch of their people and then be like “How dare those Alliance dogs attack our Warchief after she’s been literally committing crimes against them for years.” and act surprised when they’ve finally had enough of literally giving the Horde chance after chance to restore that moral fiber.

It’s almost like there might be a reason for that or something, like maybe electing the ONLY Horde leader with an active grudge against members of the Alliance leadership as Warchief was a BAD idea.

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I don’t get how Anduin can punish Genn after the fact when it turns out she was up to something. I mean sure his unprovoked attack was bad but he had his reasons for wanting sylvanas dead. It was Anduin’s mistake for sending the two people who probably wanted her dead more than anybody else.

However He turned out to be right to attack as she was up to no good as she works with one of the Antagonist of the expansion. Compromising the champions chances of getting the Aegis.

I mean if he had waited and not attacked there is a good chance that Sylvanas may have succeeded in her endeavor to capture Eyir and attacked Stormwind with them.

Anduin: “You shouldn’t have attacked Sylvanas Genn that was Bad, but good job in stopping her and saving us all”

Genn: ?

Edit: I have no doubt we will soon learn she was already in cahoots with Helya before she set off for stormheim"

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Because for a government/military to work, it is negative to allow subordinates to willfully disobey orders. I would agree Anduin made a mistake send those two. Though, like Genn, I can see why the decision was probably made. Sadly, like so much, Anduin’s mistake is essentially not addressed in the story as such.

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186

I woukd think sylvanas knows of genn getting punished she seems to just know everything else. She just knows of the titan watchers just knows how to get into helhiem just knows she will be able stike a deal she just knows the void dagger will come to her and she can use it to get something.

Yeah might be my ignorance but unless she is written to lose a situation sylvsbas seems to know everything.

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It is also one of the reasons I hate the High king position. The High King is supposed to be supposedly just a military position not an overall leader of the Alliance. So how can Anduin punish another King? Sure he could attempt to push the Worgen out of the Alliance but that should be all he can do if the rest of the Nations agree.

The Alliance is not the horde and we don’t need a Warchief dictating what other nations can do.

Bring back the Supreme commander position

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188

Well, in that situation, they were seemingly acting in their capacity as members of the Alliance military. A Supreme Commander (I do support it) would still have a degree of issue punishing a king. And it isn’t clear what that would be since I don’t remember there ever being such a thing happen in the Alliance of Lordaeron besides the extreme situation of Alterac.

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it would have been pretty cool for Anduin to attempt to arrest Genn and the assisting Worgen after the fact only to have to release them afterwards due to pressure from the night elves. Would have created a interesting conflict within the alliance.

But that would require the writers to actually write the Alliance as something more than Anduin yes men.

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190

Odyn couldn’t actually do anything in Stormheim directly while we were questing, since he was still locked in the Halls of Valor. When Skovald shows up in the Halls of Valor himself finally Odyn doesn’t have to smite him because we kill Skovald without Odyn having to lift a finger and he just sits back and watches. Before then, Odyn didn’t even actually get a chance to smite Skovald if he wanted to.

The Night Elves, High Elves, and Blood Elves all got stock in a timelock by Elisande and the players had to sneak through the underground ruins to get into the Nighthold. The Alliance and Horde ultimately was anticlimactic in their participating in Suramar. It was a big waste.

Velen wasn’t at the Broken Shore, he did all the heavy lifting on Argus, so the surviving forces that were at the Broken Shore didn’t really contribute anything to that, either.

If you’re going to reply to me but not actually respond to what I’m talking about why would I respond to anything you’re talking about? If you want to keep talking to yourself that’s fine.

You mean like the Horde attacking the Alliance during the Cataclysm? Malfurion was literally off trying to save the world from being burned down by Ragnaros while the Horde spent its time trying to get rid of the Night Elves.

That was also what Odyn and the Valarjar were already doing. Switching from one sort of infinite raised army to another is just a lateral movement, not the world actually gaining anything new.

Sylvanas willfully disobeyed Kael’thas’ orders to not make Nathanos a ranger, and then willfully disobeyed Thrall and Garrosh in continuing development and deployment of the Plague. And now she’s Warchief. The Horde doesn’t even have the standards that are being complained about over orders being disobeyed.

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I did mean specifically in the dungeon. I think he definitely had a chance when he is fighting us, but he chooses not to.

I don’t think the Nathanos thing is relevant. It notes Kael’thas’ objection (in the Quel’thalas Registry) as ‘dissention’ (I guess a typo for dissension). Unless you are sourcing something else. Which doesn’t really give me the idea it was an order or that Kael’thas had authority to stop her.

That said, yes, I think Sylvanas disobeying an order in the way she did was a negative. Arguably it is part of what have made Gilneas such vehement enemies.

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/points to Eyir
Enslaving her with the soul cage from Helya was going to do just that.

And yet books like Before the Storm makes it clear as day her intentions was for the forsaken. For Christ’s sake even in Edge of Night Sylvanas came back from a world of nothing but darkness for them. A hell she welcomed at first to stay in which toke convincing to change her mind. So I have reason to believe you otherwise. So yeah, believe what you want.

Because she has never shown she wants to turn everyone in the Horde undead. Just Stromwind and that’s it.

And that means nothing when one is dead.

When the world is raining fire and brimstone and the enemy that should be your ally against a greater threat attacks you out of selfish motivations or what one might do, tell us you are worth more dead then the fate of the planet and for that the Alliance (especially Genn) can kick my &#%.

Kind of like how attacking unprovoked (Stormheim/Silithus), attacking civilians as they siege a city twice (Undercity/Dazar’laor), and preaching how “we don’t want to be at their level.” is a BAD idea.

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This isn’t correct. The sequence of events in the story are as such.

She throws herself onto the saronite spikes, dying (page 8).
She experiences visions about the Forsaken dying (page 8 & 9).
Confronts the Valkyr, is denoted as being in a ‘limbo’, and expressly rejects going back for the Forsaken (page ten).

“Your people will perish!” said the dark-haired Val’kyr. She had clearly been the youngest of the battlemaidens in life and was now the most impatient in her undeath.
Sylvanas thought about her people. They had come far from their decimated origins, the yearning, confused mob of fresh corpses huddled about the ruins of Lordaeron’s wrecked capital. The Forsaken were truly a nation now: a fetid, gore-caked, hideous mass of lifeless husks, skilled in combat, devastating with the arcane arts, and unhindered by fetters of morality. They had been honed into the perfect weapon. Her weapon. And they had struck the killing blow for which she had built them. She cared nothing for their fate.
“Let them perish!” Sylvanas cried. “I am finished with them!”.
Annhylde raised a hand to quiet her younger sister-in-arms. “Hush, Agatha. She does not know. She must see more.” The Val’kyr leader directed her luminous green eyes to Sylvanas, their edges rimmed with sadness. “Sylvanas Windrunner, the oblivion you seek is yours. We will not stop you.”

And page thirteen and fourteen describe her experience (torture in darkness), which is what actually convinces her to change her mind.

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194

There really is only one way for Anduin to truly punish Genn. Anduin is King of Stormwind and thus has ultimate authority in his realm. Genn is only a guest albeit an honored one, but he is still only a guest.

He can tell Genn that Teldrassil is lovely this time of year and to take a vacation with the Night Elves and his wife.

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195

Yeah, It’d take a bit more than that, I’m afraid. It’s not that simple.

Yeah, she’s also states right after she killed herself in purgatory that they meant nothing to her and were a means to an end.

The fact that it took convincing at all is reason enough that she couldn’t care less about the Forsaken unless they benefitted her in some way.

What do you think a self-serving, control freak like Sylvanas, who expects absolute loyalty from the living members of Horde is going to do after she murders every living being in Stormwind and gains an enormous army of loyal undead soldiers?

Don’t kid yourself. Why do you think she keeps so many of her plans secret from the other leaders of the Horde?

It does when the alternative is just being worse that the villains we face.

Selfish motivations?!

She killed the mans’ son, massacred his people, and destroyed his country. Wtf do u mean “selfish”?

I’ve explained to people like you time and again how Greymanes’ motivations were anything but selfish, but whatever, believe what you want.

Tell that to Sylvanas who, rather than aid in the efforts to heal the planet after it’s been mortally wounded by Sargeras’s sword, opts into literally exploiting it’s blood for power.

You know, the usual Sylvanas short-sightedness.

Unprovoked my @$$, she attacked Gilneas and Southshore unprovoked, she started this war Cataclysm.

And those Goblins in Silithus were literally developing WEAPONS to use AGAINST THE ALLIANCE, they were NOT innocent. Please explain to me how the hell attacking people who are literally researching and creating new ways to destroy you, is “unprovoked”??

AFTER they burned an entire civilization to the ground?! Are you serious right now???

At least the Alliance gave the Horde time to evacuate their cities, Sylvanas gave the Night Elves no such thing as she ordered the indiscriminate mass-murder of every man, woman, and child in Teldrassil. The Alliance did not attack civilians, those “civilians” in Dazar’alor attacked the Alliance making them considered combatants in an active war zone. That’s their own folly.

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You are trying to convince a bloof elf sylvanas has done anything that wasnt perfecly moral and just. Blood rlf players are even more fanatical than forsaken players in their worship of her its as lost cause.

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Blood Elves are the most played Horde race.

It stands to reason that Players who choose the most played race in the Horde support the leader of the Horde.

Especially when the current Warchief died defending Quelthalas, the homeland of the aforementioned most played Horde race.

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Eh, not really, Blood elf players are a mixed bag at best either being “castrate themselves before Sylvanas” level of fanaticism while others are even more skeptical of Sylvanas than I am.

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I find this depiction of loyalists ironic, when the canon Horde opposition to Sylvanas is sending pieces of their anatomy to the High King of the Alliance.

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Baine doesn’t represent my opposition of Sylvanas. I don’t see Thrall, Saurfang, or Lor’themar sending pieces of their tusks of locks of hair to Anduin.

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It’s only really relevant to the idea of a subordinate not toeing the line.

    It is with these words, then, that I deny Kael's request in regards to Nathanos Marris.

This was also echoed in Lor’themar’s short story:

    Halduron leaned back in his chair, balancing on its rearmost legs and resting his palms behind his head. "Funny, that," he said. "Sylvanas was always championing him. Kae—er—some—were not keen on letting a human train with the Farstriders. Myself included."

Why Kael’thas didn’t actually have authority over the situation I’m not sure. Or why Sylvanas could address him so informally as Kael.

I agree, though, that this is the more relevant part of the conversation.