The Forsaken aren’t ‘good’, they’re justifying their existence in a world that has quite literally flipped upside down and turned against them. By proxy, they share an allegiance with another society that is in a similar boat.
I’m being factual about Sylvanas prior to BFA. You’re shooting off the cuff by feeling.
Yeah the forsaken being victims in the story isnt true the alliance never did anything bad to them and the rest of the horde didnt do anything bad to them either everything that got happened to them happened cause the forsaken are a bunch of dicks to both factions.
Homie, do I have a story to tell you. Really, read into the origins of the Forsaken. It’s riveting stuff.
… and that’s why they’re with the Horde and were active participants in the Horde in terms of military aid?
They’ve been ‘dicks’ as about as much as the rest of the Horde has been dicks to each other. They will not see eye to eye on everything, they will not agree on everything. The Forsaken have done their part and they’re still in the Horde because of it. Thrall isn’t deaf and dumb. If the Forsaken were an active hindrance to the Horde, they would’ve cut ties. Obviously, they haven’t.
Lol the forsaken have never done anything for the horde, they have done nothing but antagonize them and blackmail them.
What’s different now? Sylvanas wants out of her fate after death. The Val’kyr and the Forsaken ultimately don’t assure that. Her plan with the Jailer to assure that no longer requires the Horde or the Forsaken, as Sylvanas moves on to the Shadowlands.
Ion even calls that understandable, during an interview he had at Blizzcon:
Evil is a state of mind. Evil is a point of view. Her interested are not necessarily always aligned with those of, I don’t know, how do we say, the living? But that’s maybe understandable.
That was- So, that was part of this. You know, I think, as you learn more about what she’s been up to, there are dots there to connect. And there have been hints along the way. And we’re going to learn what that was all about. That’s part of the Shadowlands, part of the story that awaits as we delve into the land of death, as we delve into the Maw.
I mean, if you were loyal to Sylvanas in life you can carry those memories with you, but presumably, you know, you still have some interest in assuring the continuation of life as we know it, of Azeroth as we know it, and, maybe, you know, if you face Sylvanas or confront her down the line that will be something that she remembers that may influence things, but, in terms of the journey you take, we’re all going to the same place.
To note, I believe when he says the living, I think that does include the Forsaken despite the technicality of their undeath.
That’s one of the points of contest now. They’ve made this pitch, basically saying; “this was planned since Wrath of the Lich King, when Sylvanas threw herself to her death!”, despite the fact that she does so much in opposition to this, such as her internal dialogue and the actions she takes (she even bails Varian out of a hard spot and goes all in when the Horde is on the backfoot against the Legion, to name a few).
I don’t buy that she was serving the Jailer this whole time. If the death of all things was her objective, she had far better times to do it (the invasion of the Legion, that’s a big one.) among other things.
BFA absolutely reeks of hasty asspull to obtain a BBEG we all know and its sloppiness certainly shows, because the Sylvanas we have watched for roughly a decade and a half now is not in the slightest the Sylvanas we have now. It is, frankly, crap.
As for what’s different: crossing certain boundaries to live in this world is acceptable. Killing literally everything and destroying everything built on the gamble that this mysterious figure can just snap his fingers and make it happen is cartoon evil. It’s kind of a middle finger to a character who’s premise was, again, intelligent, subtle and reasonable evil. It’s stupid. It smacks of desperation, something she is not.
Her condition was good, prior to this. She wasn’t in dire straits. Taking any offer, on the merest hope that it can solve her quest to protect herself against hell, is not something an intelligent person does, it’s something someone does when they have no options available to them and it’s now or never.
I’m guessing 4th dimension plot armor?
As I am sure you are aware, Blizzard is spinning even this as part of her plan with the Jailer.
And during BfA Sylvanas was getting all sorts of new powers, so I don’t think it’s a case of needing to be desperate to work with the Jailer, but rather that she would be seeing tangible payoff from working with him, which she hasn’t seen working with the Val’kyr or the Forsaken, given Godfrey and the events at Silverpine.
She helps varian! Like do you all realize that if the legion won Sylvanas would be dead and the jailer plan would fail
Those new powers by the way allowing us to answer the question of whether she would abandon her Bulwark Against the Infinite if ever she ceased to need a Bulwark Against the Infinite? Or if she would abandon her Alliance of Convenience if ever it ceased to be convenient? Just like she did her Arrows in her Quiver? Turns out … AYUP! She’d abandon them the moment that needle of usefulness drifted too far to the “not valuable enough to be worth the effort” side of the scale.
… but if her plan is to kill everyone, what better time, than during the invasion of an enemy that is infinite? It is all of the credit, none of the work and all they have to do is die.
I am aware that’s part of the spin, I just refuse to believe that they’d make a character do all that she has done, then turn around and say “HA! Long con!”. Like, it’d be so, so much easier if she just let it slip through her fingers, doing things she could very easily chalk up to; “I was busy, it was chaotic and it was a sucky situation.”. It was a conscious decision to do these things.
That, among many of the earlier mentioned reasons, is why I refuse to believe her alignment with the Jailer was planned so long in advance. She has done too much in contradiction for it to be a long con.
BFA Sylvanas was an asspull for a BBEG and a calamitous waste of character assets for the sake of ~shock value~. Throwing away both Varok Saurfang, Sylvanas Windrunner and King Rastakhan to tell a lackluster story no-one wanted. Very cool. Very genius.
I don’t think the souls would have gone to the Shadowlands to swell the Maw if the Legion kept stealing the souls for themselves.
I mean, you can refuse to believe it, but it’s still what Blizzard is doing.
I don’t disagree with you on this.
They can do whatever the flim-flam-cinnamon toast crunch they want, technically, they own the rights to the IP. They can also be dishonest to the artistic integrity of an IP and trash it for the sake of marketing. Kind of like telling an old story arc and hastily replacing important bits with Sylvanas instead of Garrosh.
They could also make the rite of passage to adulthood in dwarven culture by rap battle and we’d be powerless to stop them.
I will still call bull where I see it and be persistent about it until they give it the college effort to fall in line with the original Warcraft setting we were sold on, not the crap we’re getting because we’re running out of material.
I would concede some of that, but even then, surely, backstabbing would be so, so, so much easier to do than to waging a war in which you are the primary target. The opportunity is so ripe for the taking, if killing in mass quantities is the objective.
I’m not telling you not to. Just what I’m seeing is for every example you could give of Sylvanas behaving in some way that you think is contradictory to how she’s behaving now, Blizzard will just go “It was all part of her plan.”
That does sound to have been her original plan, at least, in A Good War she admits that she always intended to burn Teldrassil, Malfurion’s survival just made her move up her timetable. Her original plan could have been much more subtle, burning Teldrassil after the Horde had already held it hostage, make it somehow be a backstabbing. But she had the opportunity right then, and Malfurion coming back would have made that harder later, so she took the opportunity and adjusted her plans to account for her now being the target.
Cause the legion wants to restart, they want to wipe existance clean so the void lords are trapped forever, sylvanas or the shadowlands aren’t a part of the plan.
I think a large part of the problem, like Gladwell said, is the inconsistency between older content and current. Other people have pointed this out as well on sources as various as Youtube and Blizzardwatch, sorting the various expansions into groups like “The First Age of WoW” (Vanilla - Wrath), etc.
Not many players take the time to brush up on lore or even the differences in writing, such that they only see what the latest patch is at any given point. This is especially true of newer players who won’t be playing through all of Wrath of the Lich King, let alone Warcraft III, and who of course will be completely turned off from making an undead character in Classic thanks to BfA.
I still recall the final quest in Stonetalon Mountains for Horde players, for example. How in the name of Arthas did we go from watching Garrosh Hellscream execute a barbarian of an orc for bombing a base filled with helpless civilians–while asking, “am I a murderer?” and quoting Varok Saurfang on honor–to then watching him do the exact same thing?
I’m going to have to tell you something here…
no king rules forever
only a yas queen
Queen is the best character ever. I hope she gets away with everything so that I can laugh at all the alliance fanatics haterz for good.
I would love to see Slyvanas killed, hell it would probably get me back into Hardcore raiding just to shove my foot up her, and Nathanos’s bum.
However theres a certain Dev who went out of his way to make Nathanos his self-insert, so that he could finally be with his WAIFU and its not going to happen.