She was a character which had cues signalling multiple paths she could have been taken down. They unfortunately dragged her down the mustache twirling one because they are lacking in creativity.
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Blizzard sets up that she is evil for 15 years.
Horde players being upset they did this.
kind of your fault lol for getting invested like that
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You’re mistaking the sort of evil she is and isn’t. Evil isn’t just ‘evil’, the why and how is very important defining as a person.
No quarter, no mercy is evil.
Doing anything for the sake of survival can be interpreted as evil, as some lines can definitely be crossed that some would agree that is taboo.
Killing literally all life on Azeroth is sunday morning villain evil. That is not Sylvanas Windrunner’s original design. It doesn’t give credit to the effort put into making her evil, but intelligent and sometimes sympathetic evil, not just ‘me want kill everything cus me am have two brain cells to rub together’.
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We can only prove without a doubt that a character is a good if we get to see their thoughts in a novel or short story. Anything they say out loud can be rendered lies at a later point in time and everything they do can be rendered a pretense at a later point in time. So we know Baine is a good person? Every other Horde character is a ticking time Hitler. Except if it’s Sylvanas then her thoughts can’t be trusted either.
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Right, the problem is many of her “fans” deliberately went out of their way to just ignore huge elements of her characterization that might send her down other paths; or even outright ignored those paths altogether. Like, the only reason I managed to figure out and was so convinced which path she was going to go down, was because I asked a very simple question. Would blizz have really killed off Vol’jin for her if all they wanted from her was a competent, “good” Warchief? The answer is no. She was put in that position to stir crap up.
The Character of BfA is also very reflective of her characterization in EoN and War Crimes. A selfish nihilist that uses others as tools for personal objectives; then discards them the moment they cease to be of use. Just like she did here in BfA. She’s destroyed a city before, fully intending to wipe out an entire civilian population … with Gilneas. So Teld was not out of character for her. On top of this Ogmot’s Dream Journal outright told us what she was going to do. People just had convinced themselves that it HAD to be someone else.
Its not that she didn’t have other paths. She did. There were elements of her characterization that would have allowed them. However, the path she went down in BfA … was absolutely one of her primary options as well…
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[quote=“Droité-tanaris, post:85, topic:394302”]
Right, the problem is many of her “fans” deliberately went out of their way to just ignore huge elements of her characterization that might send her down other paths; or even outright ignored those paths altogether. Like, the only reason I managed to figure out and was so convinced which path she was going to go down, was because I asked a very simple question. [/quote]
I’m not ignoring them, I’m full-well acknowledging that Sylvanas Windrunner has done bad things before. The ‘why’ is why I don’t treat it with such extreme severity, because I can understand it, and in a doomsday situation where nothing should be held back, because death is it, there will be no future generations to make peace for, nor fruits for them to enjoy, I could even agree with some of these actions.
Disobeying and later attempting to poison Garrosh? He literally ordered a death march into Gilneas, forbidding the usage of the blight and intending to withhold forces to ensure their extinction. He was a danger, one unanimously agreed upon. Due process would’ve been to challenge him to Mak’gora, but if the end purpose is to kill, anonymously poisoning his food is a valid strategy.
Permitting the RAS to experiment on living people, as well as break taboo and welcome the practice of Warlocks full sale? Cruel, undoubtedly, but they are surrounded by enemies who want to oust them and reclaim Lordaeron, there is no second chances here, pull out all the stops, because the only thing worse than wielding black magics is defeat, which will undoubtedly end in death.
The people being experimented on would likely be executed, anyways. They’re not going to do prisoner trades with the enemy, the enemy doesn’t take prisoners. The enemy’s intent is to literally butcher them to the last skeleton.
The creation and mass production of the blight? It’s a terrifying weapon. It’s indiscriminate, it’s airborne and even greater doses can melt the flesh off of bones, whilst scourging the earth and making it uninhabitable for anyone to occupy it later. However, fire does much of the same. If burning one’s enemies to death is okay (a slow, pointlessly cruel death), so are chemical weapons. It also doubles as a good deterrent, to dissuade future attackers.
Raising the dead? It’s a very controversial subject. There was the rumbling of previous NPCs who suggested that the curse of the Forsaken should stop with them and that no further should suffer as they have, but they’re a species that can’t procreate. Animating the body and launching them at an enemy is respectable. Some needed higher, critical thought to carry out their objective, so they’re animated, granting these freshly arisen a ‘frenzy state’, but even after the fact, they’re still offered the choice of returning to the grave or living on as Forsaken.
The list goes on, but in a situation where the ends justify the means, she does them for a purpose, one that can be viewed with sympathy, the evil wrought isn’t as damning as the subject sounds without context.
The answer is, no, but not because needed another Garrosh. The answer is no because they absolutely would’ve deep sixed Vol’jin for the sake of parity and shock value, something the team is not beyond using. In fact, they revel in it, it is their favorite tool and if it can provoke an emotional response, they think they’ve done their job right.
If it was their objective to piss me off and make me feel like I wasted a large portion of my life following World of Warcraft, they got it right.
Wanting to disperse and rout an enemy is fair game. The blight went above and beyond, as it’s an indiscriminate weapon, but in a situation where there is an army of Worgen and men, and there will be no reinforcements, being heavy handed in the attack is understandable, even if morally bankrupt and sickening that the innocent that could not take up arms and rise against them would perish alongside those who would and could.
As for Ogmot’s Dream Journal: I definitely picked up the message they were trying to pick up, but, seriously. That is such a low hanging branch, it’d be all but obvious. It was insultingly stupid and easy, there was no way it’d be Sylvanas. But, here we are.
Ogmot’s apart of BFA, though, which loops back to the whole ordeal of; “BFA/BTS Sylvanas is not the Sylvanas we were sold on, or the story we followed for years.”
As for her being a selfish nihilist: you must understand that there is a method to this madness, there is no ‘I got rid of you because I just don’t care anymore’. The Horde is instrumental to both the continuation of the Forsaken and her.
We see this behavior a lot in the Corporate world and it is eye-roll inducing, especially when it endangers peoples’ careers and by extension their livelihood, but when you put it in the context of Sylvanas and the Horde, mutual benefit is a huge motivator to ensuring the continual function of the Horde. She wouldn’t just shoot the Horde in the foot for the sake of saying ‘eh, I had my fill’.
It’s a mental illness, but it’s not as if it’s immediately doomed her to being an extreme detriment to the Horde.
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So much hand waving cause ends justifying the means stuff .
View it from a situation as dire as that and say you’d stick to your guns, even if it meant death.
People act very differently under duress and change to fit new situations. That is the crux of the Forsaken starting narrative. They are in a new situation, the politeness of civil living is no longer a luxury afforded to them and parlaying is no longer an option. It is full-on a fight for survival.
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Yeah and thats why they should be removed in the horde, if they dont want to play by the rules that all the other horde races they should be removed.
What…?
The Horde is in, pretty much, the exact same situation, save for maybe the Tauren and Blood Elves. The Orcs came to this world, hyped up on demon blood, committed an unspeakable crime, then had to deal with that reality when they became docile and were no longer in that bind.
The Trolls have wreaked some serious hell across the world, from tribe to tribe, all doing different things but ultimately affording them the image as ‘monster’ to the people they’ve wronged.
‘Victory or death’ isn’t just a cool sounding warcry, it is a factual truth; if the Horde was defeated, it would be a death sentence.
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It really isnt lol
Or they can realize the gravity of the situation and that … they no longer bring enough to their side of the table for an Alliance of Convenience to be sustainable. Fact of the matter remains, the Forsaken in their current position actually bring less resources to the Horde than the AU Mag’har do. So … either they adapt, and finally move on from the “Convenience” part of their Alliance with the Horde; which does mean structural changes to their behavior. Or … they are really only remaining part of the Faction out of mechanical necessity.
That being said, there are some good Horde eggs in that batch. Tehd Shoemaker is always a joy. Velanora and Tattersail have some real potential. I love Paxton’s squad, they’re some of the best parts of Naz’jatar. Even Voss architecturally has some great potential to be a good Forsaken leader; she’s just never had anything built on that Foundation she’s always sort of had. On top of this, the Forsaken giving up Blight and Necromancy to start getting back to basics and putting in the hard work to individually free LichKing-less Scourge minds … is a viable option.
Which is why I want them to stop being so selfish, I am honestly really tired of the only justification that the forsaken are in the horde is cause they are playable.
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You’re insane if you think people would walk hand-in-hand with the Horde, after everything that has transpired. There is way too much bad blood to co-exist peacefully.
Perhaps if they have strength of arms to deny the enemy the advantage of dictating their fate, they might have a chance to live, but there is no chance that there would be a place in the world for them if the Alliance won the great, old battle between Alliance and Horde, save for the Blood Elves, who have been reserved and withdrawn from the affairs of the Horde (key word, withdrawn, they have participated when called upon), making them relatively clean if they were to just stop what they were doing and switch sides, and the Tauren, who have had no real outside exposure with the enemy to forever sour their relations with them and could likely parlay their way out of any bind.
I want to attack this, specifically. Everyone is in the Horde, as allies of convenience. They serve the same purpose; survival. They mutually benefit from each other. They would not be sending their men off to war and emptying their coffers if they stood to gain nothing from their alliance. That is the fundamental core of politics. Give and get.
Loyalty is a social interaction built over time. To BFA’s one credit, when they put Sylvanas under the light where she said that the Horde is nothing, the Forsaken turned to her like ‘what did you just say?’. They’ve had a lot of time ‘to’ make that bond and have gone through a lot of hardships together. They’ve also had a lot of time for their societies to be exposed to one another, allowing them to form their own natural groove.
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The alliance already won lol, peace is literally what is happening, is this the forsaken verison of elesan?
No they didn’t, what?
If the Alliance’s entire muster is enough to attempt one siege, win or lose, they’re on the brink of collapse as a military. They won battles, sure, but in the war? They stand to gain nothing.
That is where the situation is. An armistice to parlay can happen, because the Alliance, who’ve just been grievously wronged at Teldrassil, aren’t in a position to make unconditional demands. They simply haven’t the force of arms, otherwise they could say ‘we’re going to do X and Y’ and the Horde would be powerless to stop them, if they had been well and truly defeated.
War fatigue is a very real thing and can bring wars to a stop, no matter if the interest in continuing the war is still there. Right now, the intent is (and possibly, has been for some time) still there. Stormwind’s fall didn’t happen comparatively too long ago. There is a whole generation who still lived through that.
Peace, in its truest form, stands only a chance with the new generation, who hadn’t lived through that hell. The old and weary might not be interested in picking up arms to avenge their fallen, the new generation hasn’t really experienced anything to suffer any sort of prejudice against this old enemy, save for word of mouth passed from parent to child, but currently, if the Alliance was given a chance to dictate the fate of the Horde, they would undoubtedly execute and encamp the lot of them.
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maybe, but anduin was trying precisely that in the arathi reunion and it almost worked.
until calia and sylvanas ruined it.
you should watch the blizzcon videos lol
The alliance literally completes all its war goals kek.
They won literally three battles, that’s it.
If that’s the measure we’re going with, you should watch the cinematics too. Anduin straight up says it; ‘between what we’ve got and your rebels, we stand a chance for one assault, win or lose’.
Win, and the losses would be far too great to hold Orgrimmar. Lose, and the mobile army is finished. King Pyrrhus would like a word with you on how that is a bad hand.
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Just wait till you see the 8.3 stuff lol, its always forsaken players making excuses for sylvanas and ranting about how good they are in the story, while at the same time complaining how badly blizzard treats them.