Welp, it was only a matter of time before I had to disagree with you on something again, but Blizzard hating competent women? Really?
I mean, what gave it away the 5/6 female AR leaders (if we don’t count Fareeya over Turalyon) or the sudden influx of female protagonists (Talanji, Yrel, Calia, Taelia, Jaina, Thalysra, Lucille, Alleria, Kaja, Rakeera, ect.) while male characters have been primarily kept in secondary roles (Rokhan, Rastakhan, Flynn, Cyrus, ect.).No, wait, it’s the Warbringers shorts exclusively about female characters? How about the male characters getting killed off to be supplanted by female characters in a stupid and contrived way (Vol’jin, Rastakhan)?
The female pandering in the last 3 expansions has been absolutely suffocating. With constant forced characters like Yrel, who even though she didn’t do all that much, ended up from a meek acolyte to interim ruler of the AU Draenei. Or how about Sylvanas, who went from easily the most distrusted and despised Horde leader amongst the people to heavily supported Warchief amongst those same people (apparently). And of course, who could forget the biggest offender of all, Talanji, who if Anduin played WoW, she is his Horde alt. Not only is she a carbon copy of Anduin (same family dynamic and everything), but is so unbelievably forced and unnecessary. I mean, was it Rastakhan’ or Rastakhan’s daughter whom players had been asking to see in the game for over a decade? Only for the out of touch devs to shove a character no one asked for down our throats and then killing off the character people actually wanted.
The problem isn’t that Blizzard hates strong females or are tone deaf to them, the problem is they don’t have a clue to how to present them in an effective way that feels natural and earned.
But he didn’t do that because he wanted to free the undead. It doesn’t matter that Illidan is the one who indirectly freed the undead. I will grant you that Sylvanas did not free herself, but Illidan didn’t hand her freedom on purpose. It was a side effect of what he was doing on his own.
That’s not what happened. She lied to Garithos and told him that if he helped her forces kill the dreadlord then he could have the city. She fully intended on using him and then discarding him from the jump. That is a cunning, if scummy, move that was all her own doing.
She is the one who placed the Forsaken in a position for them to even be able to have a hand in Arthas’ death. She is the leader who they rallied behind and the Forsaken becoming an actual society is entirely her own doing. She took that throne herself.
She had the vision of what Garrosh would do with them, went over there, stood up to Garrosh to the point he was unsettled by her, and took command. I would imagine the Forsaken were beyond relieved when she arrived.
He asked her to save the Horde, she summoned her Val’kyr to assist in evacuation and got as many out as possible.
“Nor would I have ever imagined, in our darkest time, that you would be the one to save us.” Vol’jin gave her the position of Warchief because she proved her dedication to the Horde (in his eyes) and the “Loa” told him she was the pick.
You acknowledge that in your opinion, Blizzard has no clue about how to write or present them. That lack of a clue can come from being tone deaf.
Moira and Alleria have been fan favorites for a while and their presence was long over due. I would not count their introduction as pandering.
Yet, the Allied Racial leaders are hardly at the level of a Warchief or a High King as far as stature. We have had many females who led many races. But Sylvanas stands alone as the only female who can be counted among the leaders of the two Playable Factions of Horde and Alliance.
And she is promptly the blame for everything wrong, while Saurfang is sympathetic… or something. And he gets 3 cinematic to show his sorrow. To push this notion that the Horde is only bad this time because it is following “her.”
You would say they are out of touch. And they do not have a clue. But you object to me stating they are tone deaf? I think those 3 descriptions are related. One can be out of touch and lacking a clue because they are tone deaf.
I’m not saying all of them is pandering. I really like Moira and Thalysra, but I’m saying that 5/6 is not a coincidence. Geya’rah and Talanji have literally no reason to exist at all.
Yeah because she rescued the Horde leaders at the Broken Shore and literally nothing else that would actually warrant the earning of said position in the first place. In fact, that would merely be the first step if anything.
With Vol’jin we spent an entire expansion fighting alongside and discovering why he was worthy of the honor of being the 1st non-orc Warchief, it was a special moment for all of us that was SUPPOSED to make a statement.
With Sylvanas, not only did her appointment come right the heck out of nowhere, but it didn’t feel earned. Why is she worthy of the honor? Because she saved some Horde leaders? How does that show she’s capable of leading the Horde? We never got any raw examples of her leading a united Horde like we had with Vol’jin. She’s wholly unqualified for the role, yet being a female and leading 1 of 2 factions means she gets some kind of narrative privileges?
Cinematic or no, there’s been nothing this expansion or in the characters’ own history that proves otherwise.
What makes Sylvanas such a tragic character?
That she was killed defending her homeland and raised to slaughter those she had once protected, right?
Well how does that still hold up, if she straight up denounced that aspect of her character (in the Warbringer cinematic) that made her sympathetic in the first place? It has nothing to do with her being female, and more to do with Sylvanas trying her best to discard all elements of her that made her compelling or likeable.
Look, idk, all I know is that I gotta disagree with you on something, it’s been too long.
This is a problem i already saw a long time ago, from our point of view the orcs have this nebulous concept of honor that changes depending on the context, you cant have honor or morals without integrity, and you cant define morals at the individual level when you live on a society but for some reason the orcs are framed as such, i blame bad writing.
I agree that it’s very bad writing. I just don’t think it’s particularly sexist writing, considering we just went through this exact plot thread, wildly inconsistent characterization included, with Garrosh.
I think if Sylvanas were a man, she/he would remain just as evil with the same sort of personality. She’s been like this since square one, so the writers are just being consistent (at least from her depiction in Cataclysm onward). Even going back to play Classic, I’m reading quest dialogue going, “Wow, I forgot how completely morally bankrupt the Forsaken were”. That whole “Death to the Scourge, and Death to the Living!” thing that Putress yelled at the Wrathgate? He wasn’t the only one with that attitude by a long-shot.
But back to Sylvanas, her murderous emotional swings have nothing to do with her being a woman. It’s because she’s an elf, and elves ruin everything™.
long answer:
he is the ‘‘correction’’ for the mess they did with sylvanas, and how to handle the horde, so they are trying to catter to the war 3 horde fans so they hold on to the game, for most casual players that are not interest so much in the lore this is a great move but for us that dive deep down into it, it is just as bad as everything this expansion has to offer.
Yet Sylvanas keeps plaguing the Moonwells so not even the Horde can bathe in them.
See. She needs to die.
Vol’jin was already compromised before that. During the quest “Where He Fell”:
Vol'jin: Sometin' not be right dat day. Da demons, deir blades slipped past me guard.
Vol'jin: As if da loa demselves had forsaken me.
Vol'jin: Like dey be doin' now. Cannot hear dem, champion. Da voices of da loa be silent.
Vol'jin: I been callin' ta Bwonsamdi for a long time. He not be hearin' me... or he been choosin' not ta answer.
Vol'jin: Somethin' was definitely helping' our enemies dat day. But who or what could dat have been? Da loa were silent and their powers were gone, as if I'd lost their favor.
Why are you so desperate to remove her agency? Yes Illidan weakened the Frozen Throne, but the Scourge was still under the Lich King’s control. Sylvannas literally freed the Forsaken from his grip. Without her they would have remained mindless slaves of the Scourge.
What does this mean? Are you saying it wasn’t the Loa who picked her? I know that, that’s why I put Loa in quotations.
That’s really the only reason I came back about that lol. You can hate Sylvanas all you want I don’t really care but to say she didn’t work to get where she is? That’s quite a reach. She’s been hustling since she got her free will back.
Yes.
Warcraft doesn’t really actually care about population numbers. Soon we might even hear about a bunch of survivors of Theramore coming over to Kul Tiras because Jaina’s in charge or something to that effect, even though we know there shouldn’t be such a significant number.
Well this forums are already a cesspool so having a nice discussion is pretty hard with, specially because only so much is able to be conveyed trough text, at least he answered i dont answer to people that i think its not worth it specially if their tone is inflammatory or their “supppsed” stance is extremely controversial just to bait people.
To sumarize, treat everyone as a possible troll for your own sanity.
On tread, i dont think he should have appeared as the horde face, they shouldve put a young orc or more zappy boy point of view on the cinematics, he is hated by a sizable portion of both sides and i believe we are pretty apathetic at best, thus we cant appreciate those expensive cinematics, and this isnt even starting on all the atrocities he has done, hey lets start a war in the chance the alliance will start it on 50 years!!!