That’s literally the exact thing you were doing
You’re 10 lbs of nonsense in a 5 lb bag
I didn’t want to use the word nonsense there
I don’t believe they’re managing pops at all. Most ppl have 4-6 max level toons that they switch between… that’s why you see warlocks and Spreists everywhere now and you used to see arms warriors and frost DKs
Moonuredps is a bad Hunter.
Everyone point and laugh.
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“Most people”. I’m currently 8/9 Mythic, which “most people” aren’t, and even there we don’t have anyone switching toons, though we do sub a few people in and out. It’s really only at the very very top end that you see people supporting anything more than 2 toons at a max level.
Edit: That said, I am trying to work on a SPriest alt right now, because… reasons. xD
It would be nice if anyone in the class dev team would hop in and give a logical explanation.
Mages are glass canons.
Glass canons doing less damage than priests and locks…doesn’t feel right.
Like I’ve said, if anyone in the dev team actually has a constructive reason behind this, I’m all ears.
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Sorry but saying because you’re a “glass cannon” you deserve a buff isn’t really an argument.
You don’t deserve to be top dps because you’re a glass cannon or because your a pure dps class people need to stop these kinds of arguments, this hybrid tax you want or glass cannon tax you want doesn’t exist. You do not get special treatment because of another classes off specs.
Your opinion of where on the dps meters you belong is just that, it’s an opinion. You backing your opinion up with these false arguments of being a pure dps class or a glass cannon isn’t a reason to be buffed.
Agreed.
You have been on the mage forum for days arguing this. I understand your argument, but I don’t completely agree with it. This is the basis of your argument as I understand it:
- Mage dps overall is low because the fights don’t fit our ‘niche’ damage type.
This is where you and I completely agree with each other. Overall mages would be much higher on the overall damage meters if fights played into our strengths.
I think overall people are upset because when a fight plays into the strengths of a shadow priest or affliction warlock (spread cleave) they are FAR ahead of everybody else in damage. When a fight plays into the strengths of a mage spec the same is not true. We certainly do better, but we are not far ahead of damage dealers. When you combine the ability of specs like shadow and affliction to do GREAT damage when the fight plays into their strengths and then do pretty good in every other type of fight, it makes the other classes upset, not just mages.
Frost Mage is best on two target cleave thanks to splitting ice making most of our spells hit two targets. The fight that is closest to playing into that is Jadefire Masters. Not a perfect representation of a two target cleave as the bosses are not always close together but for good portions of the fight they are. In that fight frost mage is about 7th from the best. Still beaten by shadow and affliction.
Arcane Mage is best on single target. Best we have is Mekkatorque. Arcane mage is about 5th-7th depending on what percentile/difficulty you examine. Still beaten by all warlock specs but admittedly does much better than shadow, finally.
I agree with some of your arguments. I agree that fights don’t play into mage strengths and mages shouldn’t just do more damage because people think they should. Where we disagree is that we would be great damage dealers is the fights played into our strengths. Even when we have fights that do there are specs out there that do similar or better damage AND THEN get the chance to excell at the fights that play into their strengths.
Obviously there is enough there to start a conversation about mage damage. Mages talking like the sky is falling doesn’t really help nor is it productive. Replying to them by just saying they are flat out wrong, period, end of discussion is also not helpful nor is it productive.
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Why even play as a mage though if there is no trade-off for their lack of armor? It made sense before because you sacrificed defensive characteristics to be more offensive.
Now you can just play demon hunter or warrior etc. (I’m sure other classes also) and do more damage and have more survivability (is that word even?).
Why play as a mage? Other than to give intellect buffs?
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I agree with alot of what you’re saying infact to me that is the argument that is most likely the key to balancing the classes, I was actually going to make a topic about it after work.
The niche system is alot of reasons why the meters are the way they are. You have classes that fulfill a certain niche but the niche they have isn’t very good on general. Where some of the classes like Spriests and affliction have a niche that is strong and shows up on the meters.
As an example look at my own class. BM has a mobility niche, but even with the highest mobility fights BM still doesn’t win out on meters…heck look at the launch of BOD when we are supposed to be kings of progression because we handle mechanics so we’ll yet we were still LAST all of BOD. We got buffed a bit so we are no longer last but the example of a niche that is no actual dps gain still stands. Mobility looks good on paper but doesn’t top meters like some of the other strong niches.
That’s the real issue at hand, pointing at meters on a tier that basically isn’t great for most of the classes makes the few it is good for really stand out. If you take mage dps and compare it to middle of the pack it’s really not that bad, it’s actually pretty close. You can’t say we need to do Spriests levels of dps because that’s not realistic.
Fix the niches to make them more even and design fights for certain niches more. If a a tier has 9 bosses make the fights where a raid comp of diversity is good…not a raid tier where you just stack 9 Spriests… That’s the greater issue.
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Yeah! Here’s hoping the next raid brings some fight diversity. BoD reminded me of Tomb where every fight had the same mechanic (soak the circles with immunities). Just this time its the same fight type (spread cleave).
Also BM’s ‘niche’ of high mobility is really bad. Every fight has plenty of movement these days but the movement is still based on the needs of casters. So usually short bursts if you are positioned correctly. If we had a 10 second phase where we needed constant movement BM would pull ahead but that isn’t realistic. Would love to see BM fill a better role.
I think hunters and mages share similar issues right now. Both do pretty good damage and are viable BUT never really pull ahead even on fights that fit the spec well. Only exception is arcane mage may actually be straight not viable on a fight as they have to be in melee range for AoE and mechanics don’t always allow that.
- Ranged dps. Raids need those more than melee.
- High mobility with Ice Block can help cover raid mechanics
- Mage shields are pretty strong on a low CD that only take a GCD to activate
- Simply put the most survivable class in a raid setting hands down. Frost gets two ice blocks, Fire gets cauterize and arcane has greater invis on top of mage shields and base -level ice block
- Good dps and three specs to cover different fight types.
and well…
- Portal to Ancient Dalaran is always good for a laugh
- Arcane Intellect
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So basically Iceblock, the only reason is for Iceblock, assuming you even need it to cheese some mechanic lol
Why not bring a class who does better ranged dps ?
I’ve always heard the mage shields were absolute garbage.
I’m not trying to give mages a hard time but I mean jeeez, you poor bastards lol
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The issue with this is you’re just chasing meters now, and you don’t win that game.
If mage is fun to you then play it, because every tier usually there is a better class than yours. The issue Is that’s only relevant if you’re racing because all classes and specs are viable for pushing cutting edge.
People look at Method and Limit and think that’s what the ideal class set up is or there class isn’t in on the world first push. What you have to realize is they aren’t playing for fun, they are only playing to win a race.
Unless you’re going for a world first race you don’t need to optimize like that, playing a mage will still get you to the finish line.
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Mage shields were terrible in Legion when you could sneeze in the general direction of a mage and break them but they are much better now, especially if you have the traits to buff them.
Not in Battle for Azeroth. They are very strong now, my shields are 55k-60k absorbs. That is huge when a big ability from a raid boss is about to hit. Also you ignored all the other defensives mages have like cold snap, greater invis, and cauterize. Surviving the entire fight is a really big deal on progression fights. I’m almost always the last to die on a progression fight because I have so many tools to deal with mechanics. I’d take a fun class with fun mobility tools and TONS of defensives over doing 2% more damage and playing something like a warlock.
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Encounters that cater to the Mage’s niche are hard to make fun.
Waaaay ahead of you on that one lol. Ele honesly gives me more of a feeling of my mage back in WoD days. Lots of fun utility spells that can really help out the raid and make things a bit easier for everyone, good burst and ST, and decent AoE. They also benefit from the fights - not as much as DoT classes but having 3 FS’s up is just a stream of LvB
While you are right there, mage brings just about nothing to the raid in terms of utility. As it stands in the current raid they don’t have any fights that mages can gimmick or help out with, and their damage is awful to begin with. There is just absolutely 0 reason to bring more than one mage, and that is for the buff.
If there was a reason to bring them for some raid utility or gimmicks then I’d be a lot happier playing my mage. I was never someone who wanted to be TOP DPS or parse, but I didn’t want to be dead weight. That’s what mage feels like in raid currently. At least as ele I can pump out decent damage while also providing utility with totems, and can swap over to heals when needed. Just feels so much more worth it as a raider.
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New to Mage leveling it still currently, I enjoy it so I hope it gets better since I’m going to continue to level it since I enjoy how fire mages play so far.
Yea the issue is you can use this argument for most of the classes in this new raid tier…if you even want to call a 2 boss raid a new tier.
You bring ranged dps. If you enjoy the mage play the mage, you will still be fine.
It’s not a new tier, it’s a new raid.
Guess you can’t read then. I’m not enjoying it. Its low damage, no utility. Feels like dead weight, and it sucks. I WANT to play my mage as in - I wish i could have stuck with my mage since it’s the character I have played the longest, but it’s in such a poor state right now I feel like a liability to our raid.
But ya’know, keep trying to convince me it’s “fine”
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