The worst part of this is a bunch of people are going to come in here and tell you what your experience should be that your expectations of the game are wrong and that Mythic plus is fine.
Meanwhile Mythic Plus participation and WoW as a whole is in population free fall…
I want you to consider the alternatives for a minute and then tell me M+ isn’t a loot pinata.
Thanks for letting us know
The only thing that forced you to do M+ was you and your personal need to get gear quickly.
Or, as a Pandaren would say, “Slow down, life is to be savoured!”.
What part of average player isn’t doing split runs do you not get?
They only reason RWF does splits is that it’s more time efficient to full clear the raid 13 times on 13 characters, funneling everything to the 1-2 mains per run, but it’s not like everyone can do that.
Your average guild is not getting 3 months worth of raid lockouts in 1 week like Liquid is.
The part where I’m not saying that?
Like… what part of my argument do ya’ll not get?
M+ is not required because the best players in the world could clear it with a minimal amount of M+ exclusive gear (i.e. dungeon specific trinkets). Whilst this part doesn’t reflect onto the average player’s experience, it does demonstrate that there’s no actual requirement at any level for M+ as a hard requirement.
If you want gear, M+ is another avenue that provides it. For most players, yes folks will do that. But it ain’t required. Folks will just do what they want to do to the degree that they want to do it.
How is this so difficult for people to understand?
Can people read and stop projecting their weird strawman fallacies onto a rather simple argument?
You don’t want to do M+? That’s fine, it ain’t a requirement.
It’ll take longer for you to get the gear you need if you don’t have the skill to perform, which is fine. That’s how most people (me included) will play the game because everyone ain’t some 0.1% players.
What I said here is an undeniable fact, and one that extends into Mythic raiding. Yes, it will take longer. A player who does more and plays more than a player who doesn’t play as much or does as much should have more gear than the player who does less. Like… how is this a difficult concept for people to grasp?
But that’s only because they can bypass the rate limit of raiding. If they were unable to bypass that limit, there would be a lot more M+ gear on those characters.
… Caps…
Read what you just posted but imagine someone who only wants to raid doing exactly that except for a looooooooonger period of time.
Only folks in a race need to race to the finish line. For everyone else, we got months to complete it.
If there is nothing in M+ that is required for raiding except a general sense of gear, then there is no M+ exclusive gear that’s required for raiding. Which is what I said here:
M+ literally just provides people with more gear. It ain’t the place to exclusively get gear, making this entire debacle about it being “required” a whole load of nonsensical BS.
Split runs doesn’t matter.
M+ being another avenue of gear doesn’t matter.
Talk with Brewa and they’ll talk about how they are running around in crafted gear. Where’s the outcry of “Crafted gear is now required for Mythic raiding” or any of that nonsense?
None of what you said matters, because it has no actual bearing on whether M+ is a requirement or not. It is just another avenue to get more gear. For the average player it doesn’t matter, and what the RWF demonstrated is that it didn’t even matter for the 0.1% players (unless one wants to make the argument that somehow the one Holy Paladin having a Gale of Shadows trinket was the reason they won the race).
So for whom exactly is M+ a requirement for raiding on any level?
Edit: I’m out of this conversation as I have had this exact conversation enough times in the past to know exceedingly few people will actually engage with it in good faith. Ya’ll have a good time making up strawman and ignoring what folks actually say.
Have fun and have a good day ya’ll!
The players who get stuck on a gear check boss that they don’t have the gear to pass due to raid drop rates being anemic.
The player who’s on the raid team, but gets demoted to bench warmer due to being 15 ilvls behind the people who did M+.
The person who wants to hit the crest cap, but is unable to kill Mythic nexus princess and Ovinax week 1.
I kind of get where you’re coming from, but you don’t seem to have any understanding of the reality of being in a mythic raid team.
Ultimately unless you’re in a very unique guild you’re kinda always competing, players don’t stick around forever and having attractive qualities / finishes as a guild aids with member retention and recruitment. Then you’ve got things like HoF which are far less intensive for guilds than most of GD seem to believe, but it’s still a competition and you still have some degree of expectation amongst players.
Pretty much.
Unless you’re the guild mascot, and everyone’s ok with you being off your rocker to the point where you can’t actually be useful, you gotta earn your spot.
I second that
I get the additional crests part, but what exactly is the additional gear for M+ to a mythic raider when you can only pick ONE piece from the Great Vault and M+ does not drop mythic gear at end-of-run (yet).
In the first few weeks you are not getting much loot from raid and you’re trying to bulk up your character with as much ilvl in every slot as possible just to meet the stam and gear checks for the bosses. Not to mention you need to cap gilded crests.
People would rather not have to spend so much time outside of raids simply to raid.
Which you agree in some way. Raiding would be much easier to play for many people if it didn’t feel like M+ was required to progress in it in a reasonable manner and with the expectation to clear it. You won’t find many raiders not doing M+, hence why many say forced even if people are true to say you aren’t forced, but ya you aren’t forced to play the game so they took the way out as their goal couldn’t be attained anymore unless they put much more time.
IMO the changes should be twofold.
Buff the Raid Vault by making it drop bullion-track gear. You’d still need crests to upgrade it (which isn’t minor for the first half of the season, we only just hit the point where Gilded crests are capped out on value the week they removed the cap), but it would make non-Mythic vaults significantly more attractive.
MASSIVELY buff the crests you get in raid. Make it drop like 3-4x the crests it currently does to reduce the reliance on M+ for crest farming. A timed 10 drops more crests than a Mythic boss with the upcoming changes, and timing a ten is not as difficult in execution or logistics as even the easiest of Mythic Raid bosses.
TBH it’s kinda insane that you functionally cannot hit crest cap without doing M+ unless you’re doing at least 4/8M + AotC since week 1.
IMO if M+ is going to be a loot pinata, raiding should at least absolutely crush M+ in crest acquisition purely because you can’t spam it. Make bosses drop like 30-45 crests per boss.
Getting full Hero track gear early on in the season dramatically speeds up progression. That’s why RWF raiders will do stuff like run a million splits just because that level of gear matters.
If you don’t have the resources to do splits, you gotta do M+.
No. If you want a raid drop from a boss you should have to have killed that boss on that difficulty at least once.
If gear quality scaled with how difficult the boss was, I’d agree with this. But that consistency doesn’t exist since they implemented the upgrade system.
There are just as many tiers where my BiS weapon or trinket or whatever drops off the mythic bosses that are easier to kill than AotC as there are bosses which take 200+ pulls.
Right now the only difference between an Ansurek weapon and one off the third boss is that I have to spend more crests to upgrade it.
And killing late mythic bosses only to have all the loot be passed on because everyone who might want it got it in their vault is even more dumb.
That already happens. By the time 99% of guilds that get CE actually get there, 90% of the gear is completely worthless and is a sidegrade at best.