Oh, Darethy, Kisin was asking you in the other thread that he and I got into the other day a clarification, I am pretty sure I know the answer but would you mind answering him?
10/26/2018 09:26 PMPosted by CalixtoYou think so? I definitely see some sole Forsaken characters in the alignment but I don't think it reflects on them as a whole. Unless there are some things I am missing. I'm fairly new to the game after all. Only about 5 months in I think.10/26/2018 09:23 PMPosted by Fergus
neutral evil? if there is one thing forsaken are not is neutral evil
their disciplined society is clearly and without a doubt lawful evil
yup they take discipline and order really seriously in their society, even their "chaos" is ordained by scientific principles, maybe the forsaken are the most disciplined troops in the whole azeroth and many threat sylvanas in a cult of personality
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My weird analogy:
Lets say me and a friend are hanging out. He just bought pizza that I'd like to eat, but he is also wearing a T-Shirt that I find really annoying (this is Garithos). Because of this I then stab him in the shoulder with a pen; and then I immediately follow this up by asking for a slice of Pizza.
Do you think that my friend, who I just stabbed because of his T-shirt, will give me that slice? Probably no ... I just stabbed him. I then take his rejection of my request for a slice of pizza as a personal attack against my person, and then proceed to use that as justification to continue stabbing him with said pen.
That is the Forsaken in a nutshell.
I think the primary problem with that is I don't see a way in which the Forsaken leaves capitals city, and probably by extension soon after much of local Lordaeron that turns out well for them. The T-Shirt is less annoying and more akin to the Ark of the Covenant and melting your eyes, I don't know why or how you'd turn the Ark of the Covenant into a T-shirt, but if you could give me one that'd be great.
After that the Forsaken sort of withdraw into themselves, and they basically try to apologize. Didn't really want to stab you with that pen, but I also didn't want to get my face melted either. Stabbing them with the pen wasn't right, but it also was probably for their own personal safety.
Yeah they aren't obligated to forgive you, but I also feel its unreasonable for you to be cool with my face melting.
10/26/2018 09:34 PMPosted by Savanovic10/26/2018 09:26 PMPosted by CalixtoI'm fairly new to the game after all. Only about 5 months in I think.
It always amazes me to see people still actually new to the game after all these years. Like I always just assume anybody still paying and playing does so because they have just been here so long and are so invested in it they can not quit lol.
Just starting out new seems like the game would be so confusing now too with how many expansions there have been and all the changes.
Anyways, I hope you are having fun in the game.
Same, I am hoping you are having a blast! (I think I passed over reading that you have only been in 5 months...making me feel old lol). Also, peeps here are mostly good, even if this thread has gotten pretty heated.
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Look, I get where the Forsaken players in this thread are coming from. I think the Forsaken coming to the conclusion "screw your redemption and your cures, there's nothing wrong with us!" is a legitimately interesting place to take the Forsaken's storyline. Anyone who read my "Alliance's Man's Burden" thread would know I'm no fan of the implication the Alliance has to "save" the Horde from their own savagery.
...but Blizzard has done a really, really bad job of showing the Forsaken as victims of prejudice. Darethy's whole thing about Gilneas abandoning Lordaeron would have been a very interesting way to take the Forsaken invasion-except never once do I recall a Forsaken character expressing resentment over that. The closest thing to this sentiment-pre-BFA at least-I can recall is Sylvanas's speech in Silverpine, which I really liked. It just rings hollow when you're setting up slave camps and rending an entire nation uninhabitable with chemical weapons.
Forsaken defending posts are filled with headcanon, from top to bottom. A vision of the Forsaken I wish we got shown, but rarely are.
Nuking fishing villages would be a hard sell even if Blizzard actually did more than a half-assed job of showing prejudices, but the Forsaken have been the instigator in pretty much every conflict except the one with the Scarlet Crusade. And they revel in it, in nearly every case. Only recently, with Voss and Zelling and Stone, have they done anything close to portraying the Forsaken as their fans have often claimed them to be.
The "negative emotions" thing is...unnecessary. And feels like an excuse by Blizzard to get away with the super-evil they clearly prefer to portray.
I want to like the Forsaken, but I can't. Blizzard won't let me.
...but Blizzard has done a really, really bad job of showing the Forsaken as victims of prejudice. Darethy's whole thing about Gilneas abandoning Lordaeron would have been a very interesting way to take the Forsaken invasion-except never once do I recall a Forsaken character expressing resentment over that. The closest thing to this sentiment-pre-BFA at least-I can recall is Sylvanas's speech in Silverpine, which I really liked. It just rings hollow when you're setting up slave camps and rending an entire nation uninhabitable with chemical weapons.
Forsaken defending posts are filled with headcanon, from top to bottom. A vision of the Forsaken I wish we got shown, but rarely are.
Nuking fishing villages would be a hard sell even if Blizzard actually did more than a half-assed job of showing prejudices, but the Forsaken have been the instigator in pretty much every conflict except the one with the Scarlet Crusade. And they revel in it, in nearly every case. Only recently, with Voss and Zelling and Stone, have they done anything close to portraying the Forsaken as their fans have often claimed them to be.
The "negative emotions" thing is...unnecessary. And feels like an excuse by Blizzard to get away with the super-evil they clearly prefer to portray.
I want to like the Forsaken, but I can't. Blizzard won't let me.
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I am, quite honestly. The main narrative for the game could use work, but what I find I am enjoying most about the game is the leveling grind. Finding the niche little plotlines and characters who star in their own little stories. It's nice watching it begin and helping it conclude. I finished the quest chain for Booty Bay and I enjoyed it greatly. Booty Bay is probably my most favorite place currently. it's the small things like that that help me appreciate the game. I also got into the lore quite a bit and find myself reading about characters and places during my slow days at work.10/26/2018 09:34 PMPosted by Savanovic10/26/2018 09:26 PMPosted by CalixtoI'm fairly new to the game after all. Only about 5 months in I think.
It always amazes me to see people still actually new to the game after all these years. Like I always just assume anybody still paying and playing does so because they have just been here so long and are so invested in it they can not quit lol.
Just starting out new seems like the game would be so confusing now too with how many expansions there have been and all the changes.
Anyways, I hope you are having fun in the game.
Also grinding out the reps to unlock the allied races is tedious but it helps me not think about my depression. So that's a win too I guess lol
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10/26/2018 09:33 PMPosted by SaiphasOh, Darethy, Kisin was asking you in the other thread that he and I got into the other day a clarification, I am pretty sure I know the answer but would you mind answering him?
Replied. I think where a lot of my anger, both rational and irrational right now is coming from, is from WC3 in particular and beyond.
It's kind of fostered this mentality of circling the wagon around Lordaeron in the Forsaken community because actually !@#$ everyone else.
WC2 and WC1 seem like a different dimension these days...at least before BfA.
10/26/2018 09:39 PMPosted by KharinakLook, I get where the Forsaken players in this thread are coming from. I think the Forsaken coming to the conclusion "screw your redemption and your cures, there's nothing wrong with us!" is a legitimately interesting place to take the Forsaken's storyline. Anyone who read my "Alliance's Man's Burden" thread would know I'm no fan of the implication the Alliance has to "save" the Horde from their own savagery.
...but Blizzard has done a really, really bad job of showing the Forsaken as victims of prejudice. Darethy's whole thing about Gilneas abandoning Lordaeron would have been a very interesting way to take the Forsaken invasion-except never once do I recall a Forsaken character expressing resentment over that. The closest thing to this sentiment-pre-BFA at least-I can recall is Sylvanas's speech in Silverpine, which I really liked. It just rings hollow when you're setting up slave camps and rending an entire nation uninhabitable with chemical weapons.
[/quote]
The thing is that resentment exists....
In Edge of Night.
And only Edge of Night, just like how the more sympathetic Forsaken in BfA exist...in Before the Storm. To be frank Lilan Voss and Thomas Zelling shock the hell out of me for being here.
Isn't telling the story in ways outside the MMO you're paying for great?
10/26/2018 09:35 PMPosted by DarethyMy weird analogy:
Lets say me and a friend are hanging out. He just bought pizza that I'd like to eat, but he is also wearing a T-Shirt that I find really annoying (this is Garithos). Because of this I then stab him in the shoulder with a pen; and then I immediately follow this up by asking for a slice of Pizza.
Do you think that my friend, who I just stabbed because of his T-shirt, will give me that slice? Probably no ... I just stabbed him. I then take his rejection of my request for a slice of pizza as a personal attack against my person, and then proceed to use that as justification to continue stabbing him with said pen.
That is the Forsaken in a nutshell.
I think the primary problem with that is I don't see a way in which the Forsaken leaves capitals city, and probably by extension soon after much of local Lordaeron that turns out well for them. The T-Shirt is less annoying and more akin to the Ark of the Covenant and melting your eyes, I don't know why or how you'd turn the Ark of the Covenant into a T-shirt, but if you could give me one that'd be great.
After that the Forsaken sort of withdraw into themselves, and they basically try to apologize. Didn't really want to stab you with that pen, but I also didn't want to get my face melted either. Stabbing them with the pen wasn't right, but it also was probably for their own personal safety.
Yeah they aren't obligated to forgive you, but I also feel its unreasonable for you to be cool with my face melting.
No ... because there was another option. Rather than stabbing my friend, I could have requested he take off the T-Shirt I found so annoying. He may not like me for this, but he may follow through and even give me a piece of pizza.
Sylvanas could have captured Garithos and held him captive, until she could open negotiations with the Alliance ... she did not need to have her Dreadlord friend kill him. While the Alliance might have been annoyed, it would have been a much better stance to start relations with.
Instead ... she chose to slaughter him (feeding him to her Ghouls) and his men. Meaning she is not only prone to betrayal, but extreme violence, and chose to kill him with the very demon she happens to be friends with. The only way she could have screwed up negotiations with SW more is if she tried intentionally.
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10/26/2018 09:39 PMPosted by KharinakI want to like the Forsaken, but I can't. Blizzard won't let me.
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10/26/2018 09:33 PMPosted by SaiphasOh, Darethy, Kisin was asking you in the other thread that he and I got into the other day a clarification, I am pretty sure I know the answer but would you mind answering him?
Replied. I think where a lot of my anger, both rational and irrational right now is coming from, is from WC3 in particular and beyond.
It's kind of fostered this mentality of circling the wagon around Lordaeron in the Forsaken community because actually !@#$ everyone else.
WC2 and WC1 seem like a different dimension these days...at least before BfA.
I can understand that. Like I said up thread, Anduin Lothar and Liane, heck even adopted Stormwind Heroes like Khagdar and Turalyon (First was part of the first war and second the heir to Lothar) were good and just and noble people who defended themselves against probably one of the worst sets of evils in the game's history. It really rankled when I then here the dev's say WC1 was ambiguous, so I can totally get where your anger.
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10/26/2018 09:35 PMPosted by Darethy...
I think the primary problem with that is I don't see a way in which the Forsaken leaves capitals city, and probably by extension soon after much of local Lordaeron that turns out well for them. The T-Shirt is less annoying and more akin to the Ark of the Covenant and melting your eyes, I don't know why or how you'd turn the Ark of the Covenant into a T-shirt, but if you could give me one that'd be great.
After that the Forsaken sort of withdraw into themselves, and they basically try to apologize. Didn't really want to stab you with that pen, but I also didn't want to get my face melted either. Stabbing them with the pen wasn't right, but it also was probably for their own personal safety.
Yeah they aren't obligated to forgive you, but I also feel its unreasonable for you to be cool with my face melting.
No ... because there was another option. Rather than stabbing my friend, I could have requested the T-Shirt I found so annoying. He may not like me for this, but he may follow through and even give me a piece of pizza.
Sylvanas could have captured Garithos and held him captive, until she could open negotiations with the Alliance ... she did not need to have her Dreadlord friend kill him. While the Alliance might have been annoyed, it would have been a much better stance to start relations with.
Instead ... she chose to slaughter him (feeding him to her Ghouls) and his men. Meaning she is not only prone to betrayal, but extreme violence, and chose to kill him with the very demon she happens to be friends with. The only way she could have screwed up negotiations with SW more is if she tried intentionally.
True, she could of asked him not. I don't think for a moment he would of reacted to the insinuation with anything but violence, but yeah. Which does come down to a problem largely with the Forsaken are portrayed around Windrunner, and the detriment that causes to them.
At the same time as i'v mentioned before I do find it curious that Garithos rarely, if ever, actually comes up in the context of the Alliances reaction to the Forsaken in lore. Which led me to believe either internally within WoW it was considered a 'justified' act, with whatever you think of that, or the Alliance simply never found out about it on a macro level.
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Sidenote-after all these deep life-stories and how it effected your choice of in-game race, I feel a bit boring for "OH COOL THESE GUYS RIDE DINOSAURS!"
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I really wish Blizzard would put more of that in the game and not force us to look through various other media to try and find the valid points where Forsaken are portrayed as anything more than the fanatic revelry in serving their Queen and the cardboard cutout archtype mustache bad guys Blizzard seems intent with portraying them as.10/26/2018 09:41 PMPosted by Darethy
The thing is that resentment exists....
In Edge of Night.
And only Edge of Night, just like how the more sympathetic Forsaken in BfA exist...in Before the Storm. To be frank Lilan Voss and Thomas Zelling shock the hell out of me for being here.
Isn't telling the story in ways outside the MMO you're paying for great?
I have very high hopes for Zelling. Very high hopes. I really don't want him to disappoint me. I want him to show me that there's more to the Forsaken than Sylvannas and her law.
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Don't feel bad, I made a Worgen because a have a semi fetish for werewolves. That's literally the only sole reason I made a Worgen lmao10/26/2018 09:49 PMPosted by KharinakSidenote-after all these deep life-stories and how it effected your choice of in-game race, I feel a bit boring for "OH COOL THESE GUYS RIDE DINOSAURS!"
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10/26/2018 09:49 PMPosted by KharinakSidenote-after all these deep life-stories and how it effected your choice of in-game race, I feel a bit boring for "OH COOL THESE GUYS RIDE DINOSAURS!"
Well Dinosaurs are pretty !@#$ing cool.
I think a lot of this comes down to the perspective of the races portrayed, which is heavily biased for all those involved. Likewise Blizzards really, REALLY, bad attempts to portray and articulate morality, right and wrong, and what a good cause for a war is.
Because take for example Gilneas. My anger isn't really at the Gilneans, it's at Genn, Genn specifically and maybe his closest goons. But it's obvious that Before the Storm is setting him up as 'redeemed', that he'd realized the error of his ways, and that now he believes Forsaken and living people can be together, it's extremely heavily telegraphed.
Except for all the reasons I just gave out, not only did they botch his redemption, in some ways they actually made me hate him more.
Which is....mildly hilarious.
10/26/2018 09:49 PMPosted by KharinakSidenote-after all these deep life-stories and how it effected your choice of in-game race, I feel a bit boring for "OH COOL THESE GUYS RIDE DINOSAURS!"
Well Dinosaurs are pretty !@#$ing cool.
I think a lot of this comes down to the perspective of the races portrayed, which is heavily biased for all those involved. Likewise Blizzards really, REALLY, bad attempts to portray and articulate morality, right and wrong, and what a good cause for a war is.
Because take for example Gilneas. My anger isn't really at the Gilneans, it's at Genn, Genn specifically and maybe his closest goons. But it's obvious that Before the Storm is setting him up as 'redeemed', that he'd realized the error of his ways, and that now he believes Forsaken and living people can be together, it's extremely heavily telegraphed.
Except for all the reasons I just gave out, not only did they botch his redemption, in some ways they actually made me hate him more.
Which is....mildly hilarious.
This is the crux of why Morality plays do not mix with faction wars well, imo.
Heh, I won't pretend my love have Trolls hasn't evolved over the years-possibly influenced from my childhood dreams of paleontology giving way to my current college years studying for a history degree-but dinosaurs are still a pretty big part of it.10/26/2018 09:51 PMPosted by CalixtoDon't feel bad, I made a Worgen because a have a semi fetish for werewolves. That's literally the only sole reason I made a Worgen lmao10/26/2018 09:49 PMPosted by KharinakSidenote-after all these deep life-stories and how it effected your choice of in-game race, I feel a bit boring for "OH COOL THESE GUYS RIDE DINOSAURS!"
D'kala Di'chuka Horridon! Kalimaste!
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I think I've realized that I hate Sylvannas not just because of Teldrassil which is glaringly obvious, but that she had went low enough to treat her own people with contempt and treating them as her tools. It really irks me when she regards the Forsaken as just "arrows in her quiver" because Forsaken are more than that. They are individuals with identities and it is insulting to treat them as if they are nothing but a means to an end. Especially after you go through the trouble of rallying them and bringing them together. They love you. They trust you. They are willing to do whatever you want to please you because you helped them in their time of need and helped them gain an identity beyond what everyone else just saw you as.
But for her to throw all of that out of the window because she just..I don't know..went through some inexplicable catharsis. I'm offended that she would manipulate and treat her own people that way. I want her dead and I want the Forsaken to have a leader that is worthy of them and not this..this farce of a Queen.
But for her to throw all of that out of the window because she just..I don't know..went through some inexplicable catharsis. I'm offended that she would manipulate and treat her own people that way. I want her dead and I want the Forsaken to have a leader that is worthy of them and not this..this farce of a Queen.
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Who knows? Maybe Sylvanas out of the picture will be a good thing. It seems most of the arguments against come down to what Sylvanas did, or what Sylvanas was thinking. I'm hoping they put Nathanos and his developing moral conscious in charge.
....
Or maybe they'll completely miss the point and do something stupid like have it be Calia.
....
Or maybe they'll completely miss the point and do something stupid like have it be Calia.
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Sounds like a lot of people her have been down in the dumps, I'm just a whisper away if anyone is sad and needs to talk!