10/26/2018 09:03 PMPosted by
Saiphas
Can I just say that
1) I appreciate Amadis' story, it took courage to write.
2) All this going on in this thread is what I fear most whenever this faction war !@#$ happens. and in some of the others is exactly why I am so disheartened.
Thank you Saiphas.
We're all used to these kind of flash conversations. They die down eventually, and then we can turn the conversation back towards something meaningful.
I will respond to Darethy's first post once things have calmed down and I can give him my full attention, and hopefully he can read my response with his full attention, without having the angry buzzing going on all around him.
That total stranger was going to force them out of capital city to probably die out in the forest. You die, or they die, neither is a good option but the Forsaken did what they had to do even if it was morally repugnant.
Sometimes you just have to survive. Those emissaries were a chance to turn things around, to stop the cycle of hatred before it started, the mere fact they were out there meant Stormwind had a chance to grab hold of the wheel and make a better world.
They did not, and look where we are now.
The issue is ... Garithos may have been a bigoted monster, but he wasn't exactly secretive about his expectations after they jointly conquered Lordearon. Because of this it wasn't a betrayal on his part when he told them to leave.
Sylvie then killed him (where as capturing him would have been the more pragmatic route) and many of his forces (which included not just humans, but Bronzebeard Dwarves as well). She also willingly allied herself with Verimathras, who was one of the architects of the plague of undeath in the first place.
This information did likely reach SW (and IF for that matter), and then she sent emissaries (which according to Anduin, where at least received and rejected ... but he takes no ownership of their deaths). The optics against her were immensely negative already due to her own actions ... not just because they were undead.
It is not shocking under those circumstances that the Forsaken would have been rejected by the Alliance. They proved themselves prone to betrayal, prone to violence, and where buddy-buddy with the very demons that helped create them in the first place. And yes, the "Scourge" element did play a role too.
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10/26/2018 09:07 PMPosted by
Calixto
But it was a bit of a stretch wishing we could have a discussion about lore and opinions without it getting heated.
This is never an impossibility with the right people. People just have to be given the chance to calm down.
10/26/2018 09:07 PMPosted by
Calixto
10/26/2018 09:03 PMPosted by
Saiphas
Can I just say that
1) I appreciate Amadis' story, it took courage to write.
2) All this going on in this thread is what I fear most whenever this faction war !@#$ happens. and in some of the others is exactly why I am so disheartened.
It's like relieving the memories of watching my mom and dad argue and dragging me into the middle to choose a side like they always do even to this day.
But it was a bit of a stretch wishing we could have a discussion about lore and opinions without it getting heated.
Sigh.
I blame blizzard, it is they who keep forcing us to display hate towards the other faction, just so that they can sell this crap of expansion.
10/26/2018 09:07 PMPosted by
Calixto
10/26/2018 09:03 PMPosted by
Saiphas
Can I just say that
1) I appreciate Amadis' story, it took courage to write.
2) All this going on in this thread is what I fear most whenever this faction war !@#$ happens. and in some of the others is exactly why I am so disheartened.
It's like relieving the memories of watching my mom and dad argue and dragging me into the middle to choose a side like they always do even to this day.
But it was a bit of a stretch wishing we could have a discussion about lore and opinions without it getting heated.
Sigh.
Baisically where I am at, the factions, and just as importantly the
RACES within the factions, are tied too much to people's identity. I took most of the time off from the forums this evening and was reflecting on the reason I was bristling so much. I think it was the damn dev comment about WC1 being morally ambiguous because the story of Stormwind, its trials and tribulations, failures, and triumphs, resonate with me so much.
The idea that the heinous actions of the Orcs could be viewed as justified rankled me, which got me to thinking of my conversation with Kisin the other day. For him, he views ALL of humanity for the crimes against the Amani and Gurubashi. I can see why he does, though I disagree with it. Yet this is the same delima with WC1 and the Horde. For me, something Liuv stated though is important, none of the factions has asked forgiveness. Well, not until Anduin wrote to Sylvanas trying to move forward. Forgiveness is one of the hardest things to ask for and one of the hardest things to give. I think that might be what the theme of this entire farce of a faction war is about though.
1 Like
10/26/2018 09:01 PMPosted by
Darethy
...
Do you think we actually cared about exterminating the Gilneans?
We didn't. We wanted their city because the alternative was dying under the Horde warmachine, and once we were engaged Lordaeron was being attacked by the 7th Legion taking advantage of the situation which gave us even less reason to go hunt every single one of them down.
We told Darius to go, and he just left, and that was that.
Uh... Sylvanas was the one who PUSHED Garrosh into this invasion. She wanted this for a long time. The whole “I was just following orders” narrative doesn’t play out when you push for and support those orders.
Yeah, as of Chronicles her intention was always to take the city. But again, we weren't there to wipe the Gilnean people off the face of Azeroth, I don't think we were 'just following orders', plenty of us had an active hatred for the Worgen, and saw it as an opportunity for revenge. I acknowledge, and accept this.
At the same time there was nothing to be gained from wiping them out to the man save a lot of wasted energy and manpower, and if Garrosh didn't have his port then the Forsaken would of remained in the doghouse and would of likely died under pressure from the Alliance. It's pretty much spelled out in Edge of Night we were fighting a war that wasn't on our terms, and if Garrosh had been in charge of it, it would of wiped us out to the man.
Unfortunately this is inevitable, the faction divide that blizzard placed upon us on the release of the game divided the opinion of people too deeply already, it saddens me.
The sad thing is that it's perfectly okay and possible to play on both sides and understand the story from
both sides.I'm an Alliance main and I always will be but I do have a couple of Horde toons and I even have a Forsaken priest. I like all the races in a way and am fascinated by the lore and experiencing it both ways.
It's why I don't have such a radical view on the Forsaken despite Blizzard's best attempts at painting them to be neutral evil.
I always want a better future for themselves or at least one where we see more examples of Forsaken following their own path rather than letting themselves become giant tools for Sylvannas. Because while she rallied the Forsaken and brought them together, I do not view her as the
sole definition of the entire Forsaken race.
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What happened in this thread is what I expected was going to happen. I will be excusing myself cause this is too exhausting and it's already past midnight.
What happened in this thread is what I expected was going to happen. I will be excusing myself cause this is too exhausting and it's already past midnight.
Get some rest dude, hope tomorrow is better.
1 Like
10/26/2018 09:18 PMPosted by
Calixto
Unfortunately this is inevitable, the faction divide that blizzard placed upon us on the release of the game divided the opinion of people too deeply already, it saddens me.
The sad thing is that it's perfectly okay and possible to play on both sides and understand the story from both sides.
I'm an Alliance main and I always will be but I do have a couple of Horde toons and I even have a Forsaken priest. I like all the races in a way and am fascinated by the lore and experiencing it both ways.
It's why I don't have such a radical view on the Forsaken despite Blizzard's best attempts at painting them to be neutral evil.
I always want a better future for themselves or at least one where we see more examples of Forsaken following their own path rather than letting themselves become giant tools for Sylvannas. Because while she rallied the Forsaken and brought them together, I do not view her as the sole definition of the entire Forsaken race.
neutral evil? if there is one thing forsaken are not is neutral evil
their disciplined society is clearly and without a doubt lawful evil
1 Like
10/26/2018 09:13 PMPosted by
Saiphas
I think that might be what the theme of this entire farce of a faction war is about though.
That's interesting, I haven't thought of it that way. They do say that true strength comes from forgiving your enemies. They said that this expansion would be heavy with the war between the two but it would make sense for the story to eventually come to that conclusion.
You know what, I really think the climax of the expansion will be between Tyrande and the Forsaken. Probably some stuff about Tyrande finding it in herself to forgive the Forsaken as a whole for Teldrassil..even though we know that the Forsaken as a whole shouldn't be blamed for Teldrassil itself. But you see where I'm going with this.
1 Like
10/26/2018 09:16 PMPosted by
Ariël
The fact you put things in a way to initially gain a lot of empathy from the people posting here just to "suddenly" continue with a "Forsaken should become what YOU believe" argument afterwards regardless of other player´s opinion leave a disgusting feeling of wariness in my psyche.
You obviously still haven't read anything in this thread if you're still posting this. That's not what I said, and I will not respond to things like this from you again unless you show that you actually understand what I've said to people. I will not help you feed your indignation for you if all you want to do is throw down without knowing what you're talking about.
10/26/2018 09:16 PMPosted by
Ariël
Your fellow raid mates and the friends you have made irl? will absolutely help you against it. Share more things with them than the game per se. Go out with them to watch movies or dancing or merely taking walks in the park or share a coffee.
This, however, I 100% agree with. I do all those things and more. Except coffee. Not my preference. Coffee in deserts is good, though. Just not a drink for me, though. But all the suggestions you made are good advice that, though obvious, I hope more people actually take the time to do.
10/26/2018 09:12 PMPosted by
Droité
That total stranger was going to force them out of capital city to probably die out in the forest. You die, or they die, neither is a good option but the Forsaken did what they had to do even if it was morally repugnant.
Sometimes you just have to survive. Those emissaries were a chance to turn things around, to stop the cycle of hatred before it started, the mere fact they were out there meant Stormwind had a chance to grab hold of the wheel and make a better world.
They did not, and look where we are now.
The issue is ... Garithos may have been a bigoted monster, but he wasn't exactly secretive about his expectations after they jointly conquered Lordearon. Because of this it wasn't a betrayal on his part when he told them to leave.
Sylvie then killed him (where as capturing him would have been the more pragmatic route) and many of his forces (which included not just humans, but Bronzebeard Dwarves as well). She also willingly allied herself with Verimathras, who was one of the architects of the plague of undeath in the first place.
This information did likely reach SW (and IF for that matter), and then she sent emissaries (which according to Anduin, where at least received and rejected ... but he takes no ownership of their deaths). The optics against her immensely negative already due to her own actions ... not just because they were undead.
It is not shocking under those circumstances that the Forsaken would have been rejected by the Alliance. They proved themselves prone to betrayal, prone to violence, and where buddy-buddy with the very demons that helped create them in the first place. And yes, the "Scourge" element did play a role too.
This, I understand, and even agree with. Garithos never planned to betray the Forsaken, not in that way. He knew what he wanted, and he was determined to get it. It might be at their expense, but it was basically the terms of their agreement.
Sylvanas engaged in treachery by killing him, even if he was a complete !@#$%^-. I admit that's morally repugnant, and think I even say so elsewhere in this thread. At the same time the alternative option isn't really...much of an option at all, and I generally think the reason why Garithos doesn't get brought up that much in the lore is probably because anyone looking at it realizes it's essentially our survival vs his. Or perhaps not even his survival, just his sense of nationalism.
It may not be shocking they were rejected, but I also think that if people took a moment to think about the alternatives they would realize there weren't really many actual alternatives. If Sylvanas told Garithos they were staying whether they liked it or not they absolutely wouldn't and it would of immediately resulted in a fight except she wouldn't have the element of surprise.
Thus to me, I think it ultimately comes down to the simple fact that they were undead, more then anything else, that resulted in them being turned away.
1 Like
10/26/2018 09:23 PMPosted by
Fergus
neutral evil? if there is one thing forsaken are not is neutral evil
their disciplined society is clearly and without a doubt lawful evil
You think so? I definitely see some sole Forsaken characters in the alignment but I don't think it reflects on them as a whole. Unless there are some things I am missing. I'm fairly new to the game after all. Only about 5 months in I think.
1 Like
10/26/2018 09:18 PMPosted by
Calixto
The sad thing is that it's perfectly okay and possible to play on both sides and understand the story from both sides.
I'm an Alliance main and I always will be but I do have a couple of Horde toons and I even have a Forsaken priest. I like all the races in a way and am fascinated by the lore and experiencing it both ways.
It's why I don't have such a radical view on the Forsaken despite Blizzard's best attempts at painting them to be neutral evil.
I always want a better future for themselves or at least one where we see more examples of Forsaken following their own path rather than letting themselves become giant tools for Sylvannas. Because while she rallied the Forsaken and brought them together, I do not view her as the sole definition of the entire Forsaken race.
I agree with this as well.
What happened in this thread is what I expected was going to happen. I will be excusing myself cause this is too exhausting and it's already past midnight.
Goodnight. I really enjoy your posts and hope tomorrow is a better day for you.
My weird analogy:
Lets say me and a friend are hanging out. He just bought pizza that I'd like to eat, but he is also wearing a T-Shirt that I find really annoying (this is Garithos). Because of this I then stab him in the shoulder with a pen; and then I immediately follow this up by asking for a slice of Pizza.
Do you think that my friend, who I just stabbed because of his T-shirt, will give me that slice? Probably no ... I just stabbed him. I then take his rejection of my request for a slice of pizza as a personal attack against my person, and then proceed to use that as justification to continue stabbing him with said pen.
That is the Forsaken in a nutshell (at least regarding the Garithos issue).
1 Like
10/26/2018 09:28 PMPosted by
Droité
My weird analogy:
Lets say me and a friend are hanging out. He just bought pizza that I'd like to eat, but he is also wearing a T-Shirt that I find really annoying (this is Garithos). Because of this I then stab him in the shoulder with a pen; and then I immediately follow this up by asking for a slice of Pizza.
Do you think that my friend, who I just stabbed because of his T-shirt, will give me that slice? Probably no ... I just stabbed him. I then take his rejection of my request for a slice of pizza as a personal attack against my person, and then proceed to use that as justification to continue stabbing him with said pen.
That is the Forsaken in a nutshell (at least regarding their relationship with Humans).
Lmao
BtS was so interesting for me because it opened up the possibility of Forsaken and humans co existing and I was eager to find out just what kind of world they would make for themselves in the face of overwhelming doubt.
Then Calia had to open her fat mouth and get everyone killed.
Rip interesting plotline.
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