Why I Hate The Forsaken

In celebration of reaching 100 reputations exalted on this character, I decided to treat myself to posting my life story. I still have the Champions of Azeroth, Storm’s Wake, and Tortollan Seekers left to go until I have gotten all possible reputations to exalted that could have been possible in this game, but that should happen shortly as well.

Before we start at the beginning, lets start with more current events. Earlier this year I posted up a thread titled “Fate worse than death for Sylvanas,” in which I posited just that: What if Anduin used shadow priest powers to mind control Sylvanas for the rest of her life? This was one response I got in that thread:

07/01/2018 06:07 AMPosted by Threeslotbag
This is like the 10th version of this thread we've seen in 6 months. Should we be worried about the posters and start linking them to websites that offer help?

The irony in Threeslotbag’s post is that shortly before this thread I had been diagnosed by a psychiatrist with severe depression. Now, this did not actually determine a start time my depression, not any more than the statement Benjamin Franklin discovered electricity means that electricity didn’t exist before the legendary kite experiment. No, this had been the case my whole life. I just had never sought out to address it before.

  • For convenience, I have placed bullet points like this at places that are relevant to WoW if you want to skip around to those parts.


  • I was born in Mexico. My parents got work visas and brought me over to California when I was two and a half. Shortly after they applied for green cards, and the three of us were granted them and permanent residency in the U.S., which all happened before my earliest memories. I was technically Mexican, and my brown skin definitely always reminded me of that, but my first language is English, and my Spanish is terrible. But I grew up a very happy, very energetic, very outgoing, and very social child, and went to elementary school in the most affluent part of northern California, during a time in which I was one of two Hispanic children in my grade. I was a rarity, and for the most part people didn’t bother me, but they didn’t really know what to make of me, either. I wasn’t black, I wasn’t white. This was a time and place where people didn’t know what to make of brown, except for the occasional yelling of “You don’t belong here!” from the doorway of wealthier people’s houses that I did not comprehend at that age. What I did comprehend, though, at the time, was a message I heard over and over again. I don’t remember who said this specifically to me, but I remember reacting at the age of seven to the message of “I always feel God’s love.” Whether you were white or otherwise, most everyone was Christian of one form or another, or Jewish. But at the age of seven, I looked around at the world after hearing that, and then looked inwards, and I realized… I didn’t. I didn’t feel God’s love. I didn’t understand these people. They looked content and happy from God loving them. Why didn’t I? I looked around, at the age of seven, and saw the world as very limited. There was no magic in this world. There were no super powers. There were no Yoshis or leaves that could give a racoon tail that would let you fly. Imagine, if you can, at the age of seven, looking around at the world, lacking a comprehension of how the rest of the world comprehended the world, but still saying to yourself: There is no God.

    This, along with body issues from being so slim and skinny, completely shut me down. I was no longer extraverted, but deeply introverted. In hindsight, this was actually the depression taking hold of my life, but as a child I didn’t understand that. And this carried through to middle school, which I entered into right after a time where there was a flood of Hispanic immigrants into my part of California. I was no longer a rarity because of my skin color. Now brown people were just as common as white people. But that didn’t mean I fit in. The opposite. I was so culturally different from other Hispanic people that the moment I uttered a single word they knew I wasn’t one of them. So now I was alone. I wasn’t American, because at this time American still meant white. But I certainly wasn’t Mexican, not any more than technically, as I was treated as an outsider just as much for how I was on the inside, my personality and mannerisms, by other brown people. Now, my middle school was not very academically successful, though, and because of that, I was treated as special in one regard: I actually did my homework and got good grades. My middle school made a big deal of this, and recommended me to a private high school as I approached graduation. And that private high school offered to pay for my tuition, which I was pressured into accepting.

    So, I went to a private high school for very rich teens. To be a token Mexican so they could meet their diversity quotas.

    10/03/2018 01:04 PMPosted by Feldaran
    From my earliest school memories up through my freshman year of college or so, I was a loser. Early on, a lot of this was an extrinsically imposed label, but by middle school or so I'd internalized that narrative and sunk into a fair amount of self-loathing.
    This quote inspired me to write out my story. I do not know any of Feldaran’s story. I do not know how much we can actually relate to each other. But imagine, if you can, being surrounded by high society white kids who lived in multimillion-dollar houses, while you were an under the poverty line brown skinned kid that lived behind a cantina. That you knew that you had been a big fish in a small pond, but here you were a guppy academically compared to your new supposed peers that had nothing in common with you. That you had nothing in common with anyone. When anime was a thing you stayed up until midnight for on Saturday nights to catch Toonami because that was the only mainstream way to connect something you actually felt spoke to you when nothing else did. That you wore every day a giant, oversized suede leather jacket to hide your body, and sword-themed necklaces that clanged with every step you took. If you want the story of a self-loathing loser, you just read one.

  • This was around when WoW came out, though. And so the start of my WoW story. My two best friends that I had retained from middle school – a white boy of Irish heritage and a half-white half-Japanese girl, both who were as poor as I was, if not poorer – played WoW, and as we had gone to different high schools, this presented itself as a chance for us to stay connected. They played Horde, so I rolled my first character, a Tauren Druid. I never got to play with my male friend, as I never managed to finish leveling up to get to the end game with him. My female friend played Forsaken, and started a new character and had me hike it all the way out to Tirisfal so she could show me how awesome the zone was. I mistook it for it wanting to be A Nightmare Before Christmas, which wasn’t an aesthetic I was really into. In the end, I didn’t get to play much with her, either, as she stopped playing WoW because – get this – her boyfriend – who she lived with – broke up with her so that he could have more time to lead his guild for Molten Core. It wasn’t until my last year of high school were I met my third best friend and he got me to get back into WoW, this time on Alliance, with this very character, and my best friend, who plays the character D̶i̶e̶r̶l̶e̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶D̶r̶a̶k̶a̶ Díerle on Sargeras, has stuck with me ever since.


  • But I am considerably older than a high schooler, and so my story carried on. In high school I came to study physics and chemistry, finally understanding the limits that I had always seen placed on the world but not understanding what they were yet. And when my high school told me I had to choose a career path, I fell into heading towards engineering. And so, I went to UC Santa Cruz after that high school to be an electrical engineer. I had also gotten accepted into UC Berkley, but after four years of being surrounded by rich kids, I wasn’t about to put another four years on top of that. Unfortunately, I only made it three years through UC Santa Cruz. My freshman year I had an amazing roommate. My sophomore year I rented an apartment with my roommate, his girlfriend, and his best friend. That ended up being too many people for me, and on my third year I got a solo hotel room off campus through a partnership UC Santa Cruz had with the hotel. This was a mistake. Self-isolated and alone, my depression completely crippled me. I stopped getting out of bed. I stopped eating. I stopping going some of my classes. Other classes I went to just take the finals, which was all it really took to ace the classes I did choose to finish. A college counselor looked at my grades and saw a dizzying arrangement of A’s and F’s and Withdrawals and Incompletes in the same term and could not make heads or tails of it. Just before I would start to head towards my last year and my thesis, I knew I wasn’t going to make it, and so before the school could kick me out, I dropped out on my own.


  • I publicly admit, I was a college dropout. For three years after I didn’t overcome my depression. I gave up almost entirely on life. The only thing that even got me up in the morning was my best friend paying for my WoW account for me. That’s all I ever did any more. I slept. I occasionally ate. I played WoW. And at first, not in any way that could be considered even living through WoW. I used this time to do insane grinds. My first level 60 mount was the Winterspring Frostsaber, because at the time it was the only full speed mount that did not require max riding training, which at the time cost 90 gold, which at the time felt like an impossible amount of gold that I would never get. So instead I spent weeks mindlessly running back and forth through Winterspring doing turn ins because I had nothing better to do with my life. Later on, I would spend weeks and weeks killing an NPC in the Badlands named Jazzrik on a seven to eight minute timer to get exalted with the Bloodsail Buccaneers back when that was the only way to, and then after that I spent weeks killing pirate NPCS that would raise my Steamwheedle Cartel back up without lowering my Bloodsail Buccaneers rep so I could have exalted with all five. I wasted away my life, and couldn’t even pay for my own account to do it. Eventually my best friend convinced me to join him in raiding, and I joined a hardcore guild for Burning Crusade, pushing Feral to its limits in every possible way, getting through Vashj and Kael’thas, and eventually taking down Illidan before Wrath came out, though never getting into the Sunwell before time ran out, but still getting the Hand of A’dal title for our efforts. Unfortunately I never actually got any satisfaction from raiding, but it was still my best friend keeping me getting up every morning.


  • Eventually what helped me recover was connecting with my two younger siblings – both born citizens of the U.S. and inheriting such fair skin from our Italian and Spanish ancestry while I inherited more from our Aztec and Mayan bloodlines that we didn’t look anything alike, and, frankly, they passed for white. I was five years older than my brother, and almost a decade older than our younger sister, and if you can imagine, during high school as a teenager I wanted nothing to do with them, as I locked myself in my room and blared angst music as loud as I could. But years later, I was finally getting to know them for the first time, and they helped me pull myself together. So, three years after I dropped out of college for electrical engineering, I went through a program at a homeless shelter where I got culinary training in a program fittingly named Fresh Start that put me to work in the cafeteria there. Then I started working in a café. And then got a job a Cheesecake Factory as a busser, and climbed my way up through every position up to being a server. I then was a banquet server for a luxury resort, at which point my younger sister, who loved baking, proposed to me that we go to college together, to The Culinary Institute of America. I couldn’t turn my sister away, so I waited for her to approach graduating high school, we both applied, and we both got in. So, very unusually, I ended up going to college again, this time alongside my little sister. And a bunch of other kids her age fresh of high school when we got there. If you ever want to feel older than you are, try being more than a decade older than some of fresh-faced teens and being in the same college classes as them. It was a very strange experience, but I kept mostly to myself, my sister helping push me through the times when my depression almost got the better of me and I would have been serial repeat dropout if it wasn’t for her. Both our parents – long since divorced – became U.S. citizens during this time to help co-sign private loans with me so we could pay for going to The Culinary Institute of America, as banks required at least one co-signer be a citizen, and we had to juggle both our parents as co-signers for the loans I took out to make things work. But in the end, I graduated second in my class with a Bachelors in Culinary Science – second to my sister, who was the top of our class, for though I had more academic experience than her and so was able to help her with all the science material, my sister will forever be a better baker than I will ever be at cooking anything.


  • I still played WoW through all this time, though I never did more than pug raiding until Firelands, which I joined a dedicated group again so I could get Dragonwath, Tarecgosa’s Rest, and then starting with Dragon Soul until Hellfire Citadel I only did LFR, with reps being my main focus again. I started pugging raids again in Legion and got Ahead of the Curve throughout, but have found no interest in raiding at all in BfA so far.


  • After finally being a college graduate, I got hired on to do regulatory work for a specialty food company, combining my ability to comb through data with my knowledge of food. What started as a $22/hour a job in less than two years became a $60k a year salaried position in reflection of how much my company appreciates and cares for me. I also became a U.S. citizen earlier this year myself. So, to boast a bit, I’ve achieved the American Dream. I picked myself up, dragged myself out of the pit I had dug myself into with the help of my sister to keep pushing me, and have secured a job that pays me enough money that I can pay the crazy expensive rent out here in California and pay all my bills and repay my loans and be financially stable and secure and on par economically with the rest of most of the country. And having cleaned up my sense of fashion and wearing clothes that fit my form, I can even look in the mirror nowadays with a bit of vanity.


  • But the depression doesn’t go away. Things go wrong. Things go right. It never matters. Everything always feels the worst and never enough for this meat sack and its twice warmed-over goo casserole of a nervous system I’m trapped in. I can’t fairly perceive the lives of others and I can’t even enjoy my own comfort because of this crushing weigh on me that I can literally feel like pressure squeezing down on my mind and heart. Like the antithesis of love. The same heft of that fluttery feeling of admiration and hope that makes your heart ache and makes your head groggy with smothering haze, but instead of elevating you it’s just bearing down on you with remorselessly. No particular focus of wonderment, instead a sickening sloshing perception that everything is horrible. Every last little thing gnawing on your nerves and no ability to imagine even the slightest reprieve.
  • And people celebrate this in the Forsaken. So often people post about how the Forsaken can’t feel positive emotions. That in undeath they only have the negative ones. “What are we if not slaves to this torment?” “What joy is there in this curse?” And they inflict this on others. They know how this feels. To one day see the mountains and ocean behind them and be inspired by their beauty, and then the next to only be disgusted by the very same sight. But the picture hasn’t changed. Merely the mind has. And they drag others back from whatever their lives have earned them to do this to them as well. To know what this feels like and to inflict it upon others is unforgivable.

    10/24/2018 05:25 AMPosted by Darethy
    the sheer amount of vitriol directed at the Forsaken, and how they should suffer for their culture over the last several years, honestly makes me feel little empathy when we get something and the other fanbase suffers.

    Which isn't logical. I understand the Night Elves have gotten completely !@#$ on this expansion.At the same time it's hard to feel any sympathy for a group rumbling for the destruction of my cultures core identity.
    Forsaken fans, I want you know, from the bottom of my heart, I hate everything that you probably enjoy at the Forsaken. I hate them forcing more people to suffer the same fate they have. I hate every act of evil they have done – in the name of survival, in the name of Sylvanas, in the name of hatred, or even just because they can. I hate that people try to justify them for having their positive emotions stripped away and left with mockery of who they were when they could feel alive. And above all, I hate the nauseating use of the word "pragmatic" people keep using over and over again.

    I want the Forsaken replaced entirely. I want a pre-BfA Voss to lead them into an era of preventing the furthering of undeath. I want Sylvanas replaced with a new Desolate Council that encourages a reunion with family. I want the Forsaken replaced with more of those from Before the Storm and the likes of Thomas Zelling showing Undead that can still feel and appreciate what they did in life. I want the evil Forsaken entirely gone from existence.

    But, here’s the thing, Forsaken fans, I know you don’t want what I want. I know you might take this as a personal attack. But this isn’t one. Even if I hate the Forsaken, I hold nothing against you personally. I don’t know you. I don’t know your lives. I hold no ill will towards you for enjoying the Forsaken. I simply don’t understand you. I will never understand you. You are not a matter of black, white, or grey morality to me. You are a matter of yellow and purple morality to me. So alien – and I do not use that word lightly, being an alien citizen myself in a country that does not want me here – is your mentality that I cannot comprehend you any more than anyone who would respond with “But it’s just a game” “It’s not real” can comprehend me.

    I hate the Forsaken because I see everything I hate about my own life in them. Being trapped in skin that disgusts others for no fault of your own, and being unable to feel positive emotions and festering in negative ones instead because of a cruel chance of luck that left your mind like this. This alone is enough to make me flinch at the Forsaken. That they would do this to others makes me outright despise the Forsaken. Loath the Forsaken. Want the Forsaken gone from existence.

    But the Undead in Before the Storm and Thomas Zelling give me hope. Hope that the undead can get help. Along with Genn, I can see now that not all Undead are evil. But Hamuul Runetotem believed that as well. That the Undead can be helped, cured, even if just spiritually. That’s why he helped bring them into the Horde in the first place.

    It took me a long time to get help. Weeks can go by where I can feel okay – what I assume it feels like to feel normal, to be able to feel happiness and joy and wonderment and awe and laugh lightheartedly and maybe even enjoy existing. These weeks tricked me for years, always making me think I’d finally just be okay this time. But the depression always came back. Even after I got myself in a place in life where my life is, frankly, great: The depression still came back. I finally had to admit that I needed help. And I was diagnosed with the obvious. And, maybe, that helps you understand me a bit better.

    TL;DR: https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=xrmM51Kldv0&t=2m36s
    3 Likes
    Thank you very much for sharing your story, I really enjoyed reading it. I appreciate you voicing your feelings on the matter in such a way too, it's hard to come out of reading this put off by anything. I'm glad you're hanging with us on these forums.
    1 Like
    OP: Very well written and a solid read. Thank you for sharing your story.
    1 Like
    I mean I don’t want to undercut hearing about your story, because that took guts to write - but Forsaken fans are very much already aware of the depression parallels, they aren’t hidden.

    The difference is that while we also want them to move forward, it’s a very common comment here that we also don’t want them to go back.

    Calia and Faol and the like represent a healing back to a human norm. We don’t want that. We don’t want ‘help’.

    The other theme of the Forsaken is transhumanism. Of becoming something new. Of exploring a wholly uknown condition, as frontiersmen of death.

    So I appreciate this post. I do. But please understand that as a forsaken fan (this is basically my only non-forsaken character), your vision for them is what I would consider the worst outcome. They don’t need redemption. They don’t need help. They don’t need strong others to come and support them back to what they were, because they *can’t* go there, and giving them avenues to that is a betrayal of those themes to those who picked up their story to explore them.

    I thank you so much for this post.

    But no thank you. Keep the Forsaken ‘Forsaken’.
    10/26/2018 05:40 PMPosted by Yersynia
    But no thank you. Keep the Forsaken ‘Forsaken’.
    I can understand this. You make a lot of good points... but part of how they move on and become something greater is through forcing the same fate on others. I could agree with you on many - if not all - of your points were that not the case.
    2 Likes
    I can understand this. You make a lot of good points... but part of how they move on and become something greater is through forcing the same fate on others. I could agree with you on many - if not all - of your points were that not the case.


    I actually agree, not because I think they necessarily must stop, but because there is a disconnect between their desire to propagate and their self-loathing.

    They need to either fully embrace a philosophy of endurance and not subject others, or drop all self-loathing or negative feelings about their condition.

    Chadwick Paxton is a great example of someone enjoying unlife, and I could accept him raising others because to him, it was doing them a favour.
    After taking the time to read this, I get what you mean, but I disagree with your understanding of the forsaken and the depression analogy.

    As somebody with a lot of traumatic experiences, I would never wish my life on anybody else....

    but the matter is that the Alliance IS a threat to the horde, whether people want to admit ot or not. It is war.

    Even if I agreed with your analogy, (which I dont fully) I'd rather live in physical, and mental, psycological, and emotional suffering for a thousand years, than die today.

    As long as you are alive, there is hope for a better future.

    Also, just because there was a setback In BTS, it doesnt mean that there can never be peace- there just cant be right NOW.
    There is a road to peace, and a way it has to be approached, and that wasnt it.
    1 Like
    10/26/2018 05:40 PMPosted by Yersynia
    So I appreciate this post. I do. But please understand that as a forsaken fan (this is basically my only non-forsaken character), your vision for them is what I would consider the worst outcome.

    I do understand this. And I hope you don't get me wrong. I don't want you to want what I want. I believe, as long as no one is harming anyone, that everyone should get to believe what they want. I want you to want what you want. You should get to enjoy what you do. I do not believe you shouldn't enjoy the Forsaken, nor do I believe you shouldn't get to.

    It will just never be what I want. And that's okay.
    OP, I can understand where you're coming from, truly I do. I don't understand the people who try to excuse what the Forsaken do from a moral standpoint. I don't understand the people who try to say that "it's ok because it's pragmatic" or "it's ok because this is war" and especially "it's ok because they were asking for it." I never will. I know morality is subjective, but I would think the major understanding of good morality is the knowledge that it is wrong to hurt innocents.

    But at the same time, I can't be for changing the Forsaken. They represent a dark, cursed form of being in the Horde similarly to the Worgen in the Alliance. And while the latter doesn't get to be in the spotlight as dark enough, both sides need some of that in order to not look utterly pure, to give the factions a reason to be separate since Blizzard's pretty keen on the whole "you will never get along" mentality between the two.

    Plus there are people who enjoy playing the bad guys in games from time to time. It's a nice release from the restraints of reality that even I can get behind. Everyone has intrusive thoughts, after all. How you release them is what determines what kind of human being you are. Releasing them in a manner that does not harm others, like using a punching bag or a video game, is fine.
    1 Like
    10/26/2018 06:01 PMPosted by Chaps
    I'd rather live in physical, and mental, psycological, and emotional suffering for a thousand years, than die today.

    As long as you are alive, there is hope for a better future.

    Oh, don't get me wrong. Fear of death is a strong component of my experiences, and another reason the Forsaken reflect negatively for me. So your statement here is something I also share in. And it is something that I have to consider myself lucky for. But writing out about that would have gotten heavier than I would want posted on these forums.

    10/26/2018 06:01 PMPosted by Chaps
    Also, just because there was a setback In BTS, it doesnt mean that there can never be peace- there just cant be right NOW.
    There is a road to peace, and a way it has to be approached, and that wasnt it.

    I agree with this as well. I do believe that the Undead can be at peace with the living. I think that would be an obvious way for the Alliance to no longer be a threat to them, and unburden them a bit of the fear of persecution and execution.
    10/26/2018 06:09 PMPosted by Lyricalla
    Plus there are people who enjoy playing the bad guys in games from time to time. It's a nice release from the restraints of reality that even I can get behind. Everyone has intrusive thoughts, after all. How you release them is what determines what kind of human being you are. Releasing them in a manner that does not harm others, like using a punching bag or a video game, is fine.

    I also agree with this.

    As stated above as clear as I could, I don't begrudge people who enjoy the Forsaken.

    I just don't myself.
    Interesting read and comparison.
    1 Like
    Amadis, thanks for taking the time and having the guts to put that post together.

    My feelings on the subject align pretty closely with Yersynia's. The last thing I want is to see the Forsaken "fixed" ala Calia or something like that. That seems like an enormous disenfranchising insult to folks who love the Forsaken because they see something of themselves reflected there. As you're painfully well aware, there's no miracle cure IRL.

    That said, as someone whose first 60 was Forsaken, the thing that really turned me off to the race was the shift in Cata from defiant perseverance to aggressive expansion and propagation. The Forsaken should not be forcing their condition on others. It's always felt like a violation of their core themes.

    There's a sweet spot in the middle somewhere, and I think if it's to be found, it's going to be somewhere in the ballpark of Lillian Voss and Thomas Zelling.
    1 Like
    Allright, I think I may have to step up and be "that btch" this time around.

    I decided NOT to read all about your life -it´s YOUR private life and, to see it exposed so candidly in such a random horrible place like a game forums full of poeple absolutely unequipped and incompettent to offer you the companionship you need makes me terrible uncomfortable for YOU (this is NOT the place to post it. Value it more, cause it´s IS the actual reflection of your real persona the way a character in a game WILL NEVER BE. Amadis is NOTHING in comparison to the human being sitting on a desk at the other side of the screen; so don´t make the mistake of giving a purple cartoonish toon more value than it has). The important part of gaming is the BONDS you develop with the people you share it with, but the game per se? useless garbage, the means to an end, a tool designed to be used and discarded without remorse, no more and no less.

    You may detest ALL YOU WANT the Forsaken themathics cause you are making the innocent mistake of giving a fictional race too much value thanks to some unhealthy relatability you gave it to your own personal story, but I´m sorry: that doesn´t give you agency over wanting those themathics removed from the game. If you don´t like a product then you avoid it and ignore it, period. You don´t expect the world to revolve around YOUR tastes, you adapt to the world, and ignoring things you dislike is perfectly fine and a perfectly sane way to deal with those things. And you know WHY people does that? cause it´s disrespectful to pretend for ones´s personal tastes and choices to become superior to the tastes or personal choices of the rest, and this is a GAME and NOBODY is getting hurt irl just because Forsaken act like x or y or z (heck, if people feels "hurt" over the actions of the Forsaken/Orcs/Kul Tirans/etc., then those people MUST step away from the game ASAP cause they´re crossing a dangerous thresold for their own mental health and the game is gaining a value it shouldn´t have on their lives, period). It´s the basis of coexistence, and if forsaken players dig that themes not you nor me nor anyone else´s opinion is relevant at the end of the day; only theirs cause ultimately they are the ones acquiring the product called "WoW´s Forsaken Race".

    Let them be just the way they let you be in regards to your personal tastes and choices, and I guarantee you´ll be happier.

    10/26/2018 06:22 PMPosted by Anyaceltica
    Interesting read and comparison.


    I worry over the point of the thread... I mean, seriously, if he hates the Forsaken this is perfectly fine, but... aand? at the end of the day It´s merely his personal choice and subjective opinion -and I suppose chosing to share with the rest of us the motivation is his choice too-, not an argument to make the Forsaken radically change (as harsh as this sound his opinon on the matter isn´t more important than Sam´s or Darethy´s or Ion´s one). As an engineer I can attest that one doesn´t screw up the design of a product having in mind the people that doesn´t like it if this design ends up scaring away the people that used to buy it. One forcibly HAS TO make the corrections having BOTH potential market niches, not just one of them.

    If saying this makes me a "horrible human being", so be it. But I think someone had to said it.
    So I ended up skimming through bits of this to try and just get a good enough image to respond, but I did read a good bit of it.

    I'll just keep this bit short and say: I can heavily relate to your experiences with depression. But I can never really see myself agreeing with you on the Forsaken ever.

    Let's address the most basic part of this: I like dark/evil characters and factions generally far more than good ones. I main Empire on Swtor with two Dark side Sith, and a neutral Agent and Bounty Hunter on my roster and all that. In my real life, I like to think I'm a pretty nice guy. I volunteer at Atlanta when I have the spare time, love my dog, etc. But my entertainment is about escapism. And the darker parts of the media I consume entertains me greatly in comparison to the "good" parts of it.

    I can already smell the edgelord comments on the wind.

    So now let's address my stance on the main bits of WoW. I love the Horde. Every bit of it. I even actually do like Saurfang for all my memeing. I just heavily dislike the implication that many have that my way of enjoying it through the Forsaken is now absolutely "wrong" or being an edgelord just because they don't like it. On the topic of the Forsaken, I love the Forsaken and Sylvanas, obviously. And I have no real interest in the Alliance. I have like one Alliance character, and I get closer and closer to faction change him every day because absolutely nothing on the Alliance interests me in the slightest, and I absolutely despise having it shoved down my throat by my own faction's story how evil and mean I am for wanting to fight a faction I have utterly no interest in during an xpac that was heavily marketed to be all about fighting the other faction, not fighting my own because our leader is mean.

    Okay, so now that I've laid out the context lets dive into the relevant bit of your post.

    10/26/2018 05:05 PMPosted by Amadis
    I hate the Forsaken because I see everything I hate about my own life in them. Being trapped in skin that disgusts others for no fault of your own, and being unable to feel positive emotions and festering in negative ones instead because of a cruel chance of luck that left your mind like this. This alone is enough to make me flinch at the Forsaken. That they would do this to others makes me outright despise the Forsaken. Loath the Forsaken. Want the Forsaken gone from existence.


    This right here is one of the things I love about the Forsaken. Sylvanas was my favorite character in WC3 as a kid, and the Forsaken were pretty much the sole reason I started playing WoW. They had everything handed to them to just make them some pathetic, downtrodden race of undead beings huddling around in ruins with nothing and no one other than their own despair to keep them company as they waited for the living to come and purge them to retake the lands lost by the Scourge. But under the leadership of Sylvanas, they managed to rise up and say "Screw that, we're going to get vengeance. We're going to carve a place in this world where WE can live and be sovereign over our fates."

    I recognize that it's an extreme example of a triumphant turn around of depression, but as someone who during Cata was looking for anything to pull myself out of the hole I was in before it was too late, kicking !@# with the Forsaken in Silverpine, Hillsbrad, Arathi, and Andorhol was cathartic and overall uplifting for me those years ago.

    Calia represents everything I hate about where the Forsaken could go. Back to trying to fit in with humans instead of casting off the need to appeal to those who once sought their destruction. To me, I can't help but feel that it is pretty much synonymous to if I had went and succumbed to my own depression that I've struggled with all my life.

    Under Sylvanas the Forsaken are strong. They are uncompromising. They look at their situation and recognize that it isn't good for them, so they set out to make it good for them no matter what anyone else had to say about it. Irl, I'm overall a pretty mild and non confrontational person, and I make a genuine effort to be a good person. But in this game, being able to channel that feeling of strength and power over my own destiny by playing a Forsaken through their content and just kicking $%^ all over Lordaeron helped me immeasurably.

    I may very well not have been here today if I didn't have the Forsaken as they are to help me have an outlet to conquer my depression.

    So now BfA has me extremely dreading every little bit about it. Sylvanas being ousted as a villain or killed in a raid just because she was mean is my literal worst outcome, and may very well make me leave this franchise forever after 14 years of coming to love it in many facets beyond just loving the Forsaken. I hate the idea of the character who made this race what it is being torn down, -*!@ on, and thrown to the wayside just like every other big bad we've defeated in WoW's history, in part because of what it could say about how I helped myself. And I especially despise that it would be done to vindicate the Alliance for the most part, and create a Horde that seeks only to be submissive to them in every possible way.

    This might be a bit rambly or something, and I'm sure I probably lost focus in a few parts, but that's my bit on this issue.
    1 Like
    10/26/2018 06:55 PMPosted by Kazala
    That said, as someone whose first 60 was Forsaken, the thing that really turned me off to the race was the shift in Cata from defiant perseverance to aggressive expansion and propagation. The Forsaken should not be forcing their condition on others. It's always felt like a violation of their core themes.

    There's a sweet spot in the middle somewhere, and I think if it's to be found, it's going to be somewhere in the ballpark of Lillian Voss and Thomas Zelling.

    I agree.

    I did not like the Forsaken before Cataclsym, but that mostly stemmed from sick things like Theresa <Gerard's Mindslave>, Thersa Windsong, and the young girl Sylvanas killed with her new plague in Arthas: Rise of the Lich King. But Cataclysm and the Val'kyr just made them beyond disgusting to me.

    Voss and Zelling do give me hope, though.
    10/26/2018 07:00 PMPosted by Ariël
    I decided NOT to read all about your life

    Ariël, why do you bother posting at all? If you did read my post, and the posts after it, and my responses to them, you'll see that pretty much nothing in your post had any relevance to any conversation going on here.

    If you don't want to actually be part of a conversation, please go talk to yourself somewhere else.
    10/26/2018 07:00 PMPosted by Ariël
    If saying this makes me a "horrible human being", so be it. But I think someone had to said it.


    Don't feel too bad. As someone that suffers from chronic and crippling depression, I chose the Orcs, then the Horde and finally rested on the Forsaken in WoW precisely because they called to me and I could empathize fully with their existence. I'm more inclined to disagree with the way Blizzard has been writing them. Which is more insulting than the initial concept itself since it implies that people with mental illness are a mortal danger to those around them when it's usually the other way around.

    The title alone of this OP seems to be (even if he didn't mean it that way) designed for the sole purpose of inciting anger in a fanbase that is already being dragged through the mud. Even the most "edgy" Forsaken fans know in the back of their heads that in WoW, Factions that do what the Forsaken are being written to do, always end up crushed and with their leadership destroyed. Orcs being the most recent example of a playable race that went through this.

    I'm already tired of having to deal with a playerbase that's constantly making assumptions about me for my preferences in this game. It's even worst when it comes from other Horde players that seem to believe that I'm to blame for the Blizzard's writing. So this OP just really rubbed me the wrong way.
    10/26/2018 07:00 PMPosted by Ariël
    I decided NOT to read all about your life
    Not starting off on a good foot. "I didn't read the material, but I'm gonna write an essay on it."

    10/26/2018 07:00 PMPosted by Ariël
    it´s IS the actual reflection of your real persona the way a character in a game WILL NEVER BE. Amadis is NOTHING in comparison to the human being sitting on a desk at the other side of the screen; so don´t make the mistake of giving a purple cartoonish toon more value than it has)
    This may be the case for you, but it most certainly isn't for everyone.

    People form bonds with their characters. It's extremely common. Take a gander at literally any RP server in any MMO, and you'll see people care a lot for their creative writing. Projecting internal feelings, emotions, character traits or other personality marks onto said characters is also extremely common. If you've ever played an RPG and took more than a second to make any decision in the game, you've done it too.

    10/26/2018 07:00 PMPosted by Ariël
    The important part of gaming is the BONDS you develop with the people you share it with, but the game per se? useless garbage, the means to an end, a tool designed to be used and discarded without remorse, no more and no less.
    This is just blatantly untrue.

    Do you go to the movies to bond with the person sitting next to you? Do you go to art museums to befriend the security guard at the door? Do you go to national monuments to hand your number out to the tourists?

    Maybe you do, but I think it's a safe assumption that the vast majority of people don't. Personally, I go to those things to experience the art and effort of other people. I go to movies to learn a lesson or consider a new viewpoint. I go to make personal connections to art.

    Video games, at least to me and seemingly the OP, act in the same way. I read lore because I make a connection to it. I care about the story, I bond with the characters, and I genuinely take meaningful lessons to heart in some aspects of it. To have that tarnished the way it has, is why the OP hates the Forsaken.

    To you, the art museum was vandalized but you don't care because your security guard friend is fine. To others, the art museum was vandalized and that sucks.

    10/26/2018 07:00 PMPosted by Ariël
    If you don´t like a product then you avoid it and ignore it, period.
    Who's ever heard of aiming to improve something?

    Phone bugs out and doesn't work anymore? Don't talk to anyone to get it fixed, just trash it and never get that kind of phone again. /s

    I was going to quote more of your post, but you basically just reiterated the same point over and over while trashing on the OP. Your preface to your post at least ended up being true:
    10/26/2018 07:00 PMPosted by Ariël
    I may have to step up and be "that btch"
    1 Like
    Do we have an actual moderator? I've noticed posts being deleted and edited.
    1 Like