10/26/2018 08:47 PMPosted by
Calixto
It's kinda scary actually.
My dad used to display this level of anger at my mother during my childhood. Wasn't a happy childhood.
This is what I mean about how Forsaken apologist rhetoric seems to mirror real world ultranationalism, religious fanaticism, etc. You create an other, an outgroup, you exaggerate their historical crimes against you (which often have no relevance to the present day) to ludicrous proportions while ignoring your own side's contribution to past grievances, or outright make up conspiracy theories to dehumanize them, until you have your people so worked up into a frenzy of hatred that they can justify to themselves doing anything, ANYTHING to those terrible awful other guys who are supposedly to blame for all of their problems.
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Everyone needs to chill out and stay on the topic of the Forsaken. Can we all do that without blowing our lids?
We're all adults here, right?
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10/26/2018 08:49 PMPosted by
Darethy
As is the insinuation that we should not of fought Garithos and instead just wandered out into the woods to be victimized by whoever or whatever else was out there.
Considering that Sylvanas went ahead and sent emissaries to Stormwind AFTER killing Garithos, who was a total stranger to her at the time, and all his men, I unfortunately find it a bit hard to sympathize.
10/26/2018 08:49 PMPosted by
Darethy
Darethy... this is uncharacteristically hotheaded of you. You're better than this.
It's a combination of anger and apathy, to be quite honest. BfA has been for the last couple months a zero sum game of the other faction needs to suffer because my faction suffered.
That and the sheer amount of suffering that Genn allowed to happen is, to be frank, generating a rather visceral reaction out of me. As is the insinuation that we should not of fought Garithos and instead just wandered out into the woods to be victimized by whoever or whatever else was out there.
It was a whole lot of ugly choices, we picked the only one that really ensured we'd survive.
So it’s okay when Forsaken make ugly choices for survival, but not okay when Genn does the same for his country.
(Even then, they are nothing in comparison to the Forsaken’s)
10/26/2018 08:49 PMPosted by
Darethy
As is the insinuation that we should not of fought Garithos and instead just wandered out into the woods to be victimized by whoever or whatever else was out there.
Considering that Sylvanas went ahead and sent emissaries to Stormwind AFTER killing Garithos, who was a total stranger to her at the time, and all his men, I unfortunately find it a bit hard to sympathize.
That total stranger was going to force them out of capital city to probably die out in the forest. You die, or they die, neither is a good option but the Forsaken did what they had to do even if it was morally repugnant.
Sometimes you just have to survive. Those emissaries were a chance to turn things around, to stop the cycle of hatred before it started, the mere fact they were out there meant Stormwind had a chance to grab hold of the wheel and make a better world.
They did not, and look where we are now.
So it’s okay when Forsaken make ugly choices for survival, but not okay when Genn does the same for his country.
(Even then, they are nothing in comparison to the Forsaken’s)
Genn has never once made a choice to
survive, it's rather telling the Forsaken let Darius Crowley go after it was obvious they had his army beat. They didn't want to kill the Worgen, they wanted the port to get Garrosh off their back.
No, Genn doesn't make choices for survival, he makes choices
for himself.
So it’s okay when Forsaken make ugly choices for survival, but not okay when Genn does the same for his country.
(Even then, they are nothing in comparison to the Forsaken’s)
Please stop. I am begging you.You are responding to him in an inflammatory manner to purposefully anger him. Don't do this. Do not turn this thread into a cesspool of toxicity. This isn't the GD forum.
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10/26/2018 08:56 PMPosted by
Darethy
... Considering that Sylvanas went ahead and sent emissaries to Stormwind AFTER killing Garithos, who was a total stranger to her at the time, and all his men, I unfortunately find it a bit hard to sympathize.
That total stranger was going to force them out of capital city to probably die out in the forest. You die, or they die, neither is a good option but the Forsaken did what they had to do even if it was morally repugnant.
Sometimes you just have to survive. Those emissaries were a chance to turn things around, to stop the cycle of hatred before it started, the mere fact they were out there meant Stormwind had a chance to grab hold of the wheel and make a better world.
They did not, and look where we are now.
You can use the exact same logic here for Genn, yet you aren’t choosing to.
Methinks you’re just bending logic and creating double standards because you’re a Forsaken fan.
That total stranger was going to force them out of capital city to probably die out in the forest. You die, or they die, neither is a good option but the Forsaken did what they had to do even if it was morally repugnant.
Again - total strangers. Sylvanas had no idea what they were going to do to them, but she sure as hell knew what she was gonna do when they outlived their usefulness.
Sometimes you just have to survive. Those emissaries were a chance to turn things around, to stop the cycle of hatred before it started, the mere fact they were out there meant Stormwind had a chance to grab hold of the wheel and make a better world.
They did not, and look where we are now.
Why is it that Stormwind is held accountable for not ending the cycle of hatred when Sylvanas actively was hostile to them? Not only that, but how exactly were they supposed to differentiate Forsaken from Scourge, when eight seconds ago they were mincing children in meat wagons?
We can't have a double standard like this.
10/26/2018 08:40 PMPosted by
Díerle
I have always understood the appeal of the Forsaken. Of a lot of the Horde races. Whether it's being a snooty, aristocratic elf who looks at the other races like Calvin Candie describing black people, or a blood and thunder orc who thinks peace is for weaklings, or a broody Forsaken who revels in misery because it's all they understand, being a bad guy is FUN sometimes. It's cathartic to release your darkest thoughts and impulses safely, and I think that's one of the amazing things video games bring to our lives. Moral crusaders claim they'll poison our brains and teach us to do evil in the real world, but the statistics show quite the opposite, they're a beneficial release valve for those elements of human nature we have to repress in the real world, and having that release makes us LESS likely to act on those urges for real.
To be perfectly clear, I also indulge in playing villains. I am not "above" that either. My Night Elf Rogue I play as being involved with the Druids of the Flame - sometimes just wanting the Horde the burn, sometimes wanting the whole world to burn, sometimes - on my more indulgent days - I play him as having taken over as the new Firelord after Ragnaros as befitting of wearing that title next to his name. My Night Elf Shadow Priest is full on insane, worse than the Old Gods evil. I do not think indulging in fantasy violence or evil role play is inherently bad, obviously. And I support anyone who can do indulge in that in a healthy way that causes no harm to others.
That's not what I hate about the Forsaken. I hate the Forsaken for the particular reason I outlined in my first post.
You can use the exact same logic here for Genn, yet you aren’t choosing to.
Methinks you’re just bending logic and creating double standards because you’re a Forsaken fan.
Do you think we
actually cared about exterminating the Gilneans?
We didn't. We wanted their city because the alternative was dying under the Horde warmachine, and once we were engaged Lordaeron was being attacked by the 7th Legion taking advantage of the situation which gave us even less reason to go hunt every single one of them down.
We told Darius to go, and he just
left, and that was that.
Sometimes you just have to survive. Those emissaries were a chance to turn things around, to stop the cycle of hatred before it started, the mere fact they were out there meant Stormwind had a chance to grab hold of the wheel and make a better world.
They did not, and look where we are now.
You're going to hate me for saying this, but that was in the past and with flowerchild Anduin now "in charge", in BtS he at least showed an initiative to bring Forsaken and humans together. Granted it didn't end well and there were humans that wussed out near the start of the event, but it shows hope for the future. It'll definitely take time and effort, nothing changes overnight, but I'd like to believe that eventually the Forsaken will have their niche and place in the world and not have to worry about being hated or hunted. That is what I firmly believe, yes.
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10/26/2018 09:01 PMPosted by
Darethy
Do you think we actually cared about exterminating the Gilneans?
We didn't.
This really isn't boding well for the sympathetic Forsaken narrative...
Can I just say that
1) I appreciate Amadis' story, it took courage to write.
2) All this going on in this thread is what I fear most whenever this faction war !@#$ happens. and in some of the others is exactly why I am so disheartened.
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Plus the whole “we are just Lordaeron citizens, but physically different!” story doesn’t really pan out well when you are wearing all black, changed your names to Edgy McSorrow, and put skulls on everything you can decorate.
That total stranger was going to force them out of capital city to probably die out in the forest. You die, or they die, neither is a good option but the Forsaken did what they had to do even if it was morally repugnant.
Again - total strangers. Sylvanas had no idea what they were going to do to them, but she sure as hell knew what she was gonna do when they outlived their usefulness.
Sometimes you just have to survive. Those emissaries were a chance to turn things around, to stop the cycle of hatred before it started, the mere fact they were out there meant Stormwind had a chance to grab hold of the wheel and make a better world.
They did not, and look where we are now.
Why is it that Stormwind is held accountable for not ending the cycle of hatred when Sylvanas actively was hostile to them? Not only that, but how exactly were they supposed to differentiate Forsaken from Scourge, when eight seconds ago they were mincing children in meat wagons?
We can't have a double standard like this.
10/26/2018 09:01 PMPosted by
Darethy
You can use the exact same logic here for Genn, yet you aren’t choosing to.
Methinks you’re just bending logic and creating double standards because you’re a Forsaken fan.
Do you think we actually cared about exterminating the Gilneans?
We didn't. We wanted their city because the alternative was dying under the Horde warmachine, and once we were engaged Lordaeron was being attacked by the 7th Legion taking advantage of the situation which gave us even less reason to go hunt every single one of them down.
We told Darius to go, and he just left, and that was that.
Uh... Sylvanas was the one who PUSHED Garrosh into this invasion. She wanted this for a long time. The whole “I was just following orders” narrative doesn’t play out when you push for and support those orders.
10/26/2018 08:57 PMPosted by
Calixto
Please stop. I am begging you.
You are responding to him in an inflammatory manner to purposefully anger him.
Baultenn, Grandblade, I have to agree with Calixto. Please stop piling on Darethy. You're not actually having a conversation that contributes to anything, and just feeding into Darethy's negative spiral. You won't get anything constructive out of him that way.
And you're just derailing my thread with it. So, please, either stop, or move on to somewhere else with this.
10/26/2018 08:57 PMPosted by
Calixto
So it’s okay when Forsaken make ugly choices for survival, but not okay when Genn does the same for his country.
(Even then, they are nothing in comparison to the Forsaken’s)
Please stop. I am begging you.
You are responding to him in an inflammatory manner to purposefully anger him. Don't do this. Do not turn this thread into a cesspool of toxicity. This isn't the GD forum.
Unfortunately this is inevitable, the faction divide that blizzard placed upon us on the release of the game divided the opinion of people too deeply already, it saddens me.
That total stranger was going to force them out of capital city to probably die out in the forest. You die, or they die, neither is a good option but the Forsaken did what they had to do even if it was morally repugnant.
Again - total strangers. Sylvanas had no idea what they were going to do to them, but she sure as hell knew what she was gonna do when they outlived their usefulness.
Sometimes you just have to survive. Those emissaries were a chance to turn things around, to stop the cycle of hatred before it started, the mere fact they were out there meant Stormwind had a chance to grab hold of the wheel and make a better world.
They did not, and look where we are now.
Why is it that Stormwind is held accountable for not ending the cycle of hatred when Sylvanas actively was hostile to them? Not only that, but how exactly were they supposed to differentiate Forsaken from Scourge, when eight seconds ago they were mincing children in meat wagons?
We can't have a double standard like this.
I'd buy that except the Forsaken had a pretty obvious difference from normal scourge. Mainly that anyone who observed their movements for five seconds and the fact that they, y'know, TALKED to you would indicate they were quite sentient.
Garithos wasn't exactly unclear about his intentions. He wanted the Forsaken gone, it didn't take a prophet to see that he and his men would take capital city for their own, and he was killed just as he ordered those 'wretched animals' out of his city.
10/26/2018 09:03 PMPosted by
Saiphas
Can I just say that
1) I appreciate Amadis' story, it took courage to write.
2) All this going on in this thread is what I fear most whenever this faction war !@#$ happens. and in some of the others is exactly why I am so disheartened.
It's like relieving the memories of watching my mom and dad argue and dragging me into the middle to choose a side like they always do even to this day.
But it was a bit of a stretch wishing we could have a discussion about lore and opinions without it getting heated.
Sigh.
10/26/2018 09:05 PMPosted by
Darethy
Garithos wasn't exactly unclear about his intentions. He wanted the Forsaken gone, it didn't take a prophet to see that he and his men would take capital city for their own, and he was killed just as he ordered those 'wretched animals' out of his city.
That wasn't clear at all. He literally stood down and buddied up with her when she said she wasn't Scourge. Sure, he was a sh!t dude who deserved to die, but he wasn't barking how much he hated Sylvanas and the Forsaken. In fact, immediately after Garithos pledged himself to fighting with her, she resolved to kill them. She didn't use foresight at all, she just decided it as soon as she saw them.
10/26/2018 09:05 PMPosted by
Darethy
I'd buy that except the Forsaken had a pretty obvious difference from normal scourge. Mainly that anyone who observed their movements for five seconds and the fact that they, y'know, TALKED to you would indicate they were quite sentient
And how exactly were the Stormwindians to know this? It seems like the Forsaken-bodied Scourge from later on were pretty coherent. They had every reason to believe it could've been a trap.
Plus, it's entirely possible they just shot them from afar before they got to the city.
But I'll respect Amadis's wishes and end this here. It's upsetting people.