Only posting because liking Darethy’s post isn’t enough. He says what many of us feel - !@#$ redemption.
10/26/2018 08:31 PMPosted by BaultennChill out Darethy damn.
1) Sylvanas betrayed Garithos, and is mad when humans retaliate? Okay.
2) Genn is perfectly justified in his disgust for the Forsaken. They barged into his homeland, enslaved and experimented on his people, worked them to death, and carved their bodies into a sewn together mess.
3) You’re more mad about Genn in Stormheim, than Sylvanas outright hiding her true intentions for being there from her own people, to enslave Eyir, which would GREATLY hinder our chances of getting the Aegis? Okay.
This isn't even about Sylvanas at this point, Sylvanas is a side to how I feel. I could give less of a !@#$ what Genn thinks about Sylvanas, it's what he did to the people of Lordaeron. I do think it's funny you bring up Garithos though, I don't think that anyone, even most people in the current Alliance, care given that %^-*!@#s viewpoints on the world.
And I feel oh so sorry that we were forced at gunpoint to attack the miserable wretch of a human being that literally watched us be eaten alive by the scourge, then tossed his hands up to the heavens and shouted he'd been vindicated all along! My heart bleeds for you.
I have no chill.
3) You’re more mad about Genn in Stormheim, than Sylvanas outright hiding her true intentions for being there from her own people, to enslave Eyir, which would GREATLY hinder our chances of getting the Aegis? Okay.
What are you talking about? Odyn literally has you bash his Val’kyr about to earn the Aegis. His entire worldview is based on being strong enough to take what you want. He’s a dirtbag - there’s no evidence, or even a suggestion, it would have interfered with gaining the Aegis. He was willing to give it to the Legion if their champion had managed to beat us in a fight.
He might have set out to defeat Sylvanas and win back the Val’kyr, but he would probably relish the challenge, not begrudge her.
Odyn’s a bit of a jerk.
10/26/2018 08:31 PMPosted by YersyniaOnly posting because liking Darethy’s post isn’t enough. He says what many of us feel - !@#$ redemption.
Shame that. Your faction was founded on the idea.
It’s less that Garithos was a prick who deserved it, and more of all those countless lordaeron humans she lead on to believe that they would get Capitol City back if they fought beside her. When the human army completed their end of the bargain, they were met with a forsaken army that pushed them summarily out.
Boo hoo. Forsaken don’t deserve empathy for being so arrogant that they think they can pull that off, ask the humans for help afterwards, and then when humans retaliate and say piss off, they DARE claim oppression. Give me a break.
Boo hoo. Forsaken don’t deserve empathy for being so arrogant that they think they can pull that off, ask the humans for help afterwards, and then when humans retaliate and say piss off, they DARE claim oppression. Give me a break.
I'm only going to comment about my own thoughts on the Forsaken and I will try to keep it short, sweet and to the point.
I don't hate the Forsaken. I pity them in a way and I understand why they do what they do. I only wish they asked permission first before they forced others into undeath with them. Not everyone wants to be reanimated after they die and it's unfair to ignore their feelings on the matter just because you "need to survive". It's precisely that thinking that has other races viewing them with such disdain. It would probably be easier for the Forsaken to establish themselves in any given area if they weren't seemingly finding new ways to get everyone to hate them to justify some of the messed up things they do. I'm thinking the Forsaken can be left alone and not hurt anyone and maybe if someone wants to reanimate after death, they can and they'll have a home with the Forsaken. Boom, zero boundaries crossed. The Forsaken aren't giving others more reasons and excuses to actively seek their destruction and they'd be working towards showing the other races that they can hold their own and that they are not the monsters everyone makes them out to be.
Thanks for sharing your post. I sympathize because I also suffer from severe depression and getting into the game's lore and playing is pretty much the only thing keeping me alive at this point and I have a husband and a father with cancer.
Take care. I hope one day you'll find something really worth living for.
I don't hate the Forsaken. I pity them in a way and I understand why they do what they do. I only wish they asked permission first before they forced others into undeath with them. Not everyone wants to be reanimated after they die and it's unfair to ignore their feelings on the matter just because you "need to survive". It's precisely that thinking that has other races viewing them with such disdain. It would probably be easier for the Forsaken to establish themselves in any given area if they weren't seemingly finding new ways to get everyone to hate them to justify some of the messed up things they do. I'm thinking the Forsaken can be left alone and not hurt anyone and maybe if someone wants to reanimate after death, they can and they'll have a home with the Forsaken. Boom, zero boundaries crossed. The Forsaken aren't giving others more reasons and excuses to actively seek their destruction and they'd be working towards showing the other races that they can hold their own and that they are not the monsters everyone makes them out to be.
Thanks for sharing your post. I sympathize because I also suffer from severe depression and getting into the game's lore and playing is pretty much the only thing keeping me alive at this point and I have a husband and a father with cancer.
Take care. I hope one day you'll find something really worth living for.
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I have always understood the appeal of the Forsaken. Of a lot of the Horde races. Whether it's being a snooty, aristocratic elf who looks at the other races like Calvin Candie describing black people, or a blood and thunder orc who thinks peace is for weaklings, or a broody Forsaken who revels in misery because it's all they understand, being a bad guy is FUN sometimes. It's cathartic to release your darkest thoughts and impulses safely, and I think that's one of the amazing things video games bring to our lives. Moral crusaders claim they'll poison our brains and teach us to do evil in the real world, but the statistics show quite the opposite, they're a beneficial release valve for those elements of human nature we have to repress in the real world, and having that release makes us LESS likely to act on those urges for real.
What I don't understand, what I think I'll NEVER understand, is Forsaken APOLOGISTS. People who actually argue in complete, out of character seriousness, the moral acceptability of the things the Forsaken do. That they're just being practical, or that the living have it coming because of some ancient grievance, or that Sylvanas is only obligated to care about what's good for HER people, to hell with everyone else. This sort of rhetoric cleaves so close to nationalistic hysterias in the real world which have preceded wars, genocides, and other atrocities.
If you want to play the bad guys, EMBRACE being a bad guy, revel in villainy...but also remember the faction you're being villainous to is, in a game like WOW, made up of real people too, and your entertainment should not come from ruining THEIR entertainment. So yeah, you're gonna lose in the end. You're always gonna lose in the end and get your comeuppance, because that's how being the bad guy works. If it's a singleplayer game, sure, have at, be as bad as you like with no consequences. But in an MMO, you have to go into playing a villain understanding and accepting that cycle of good triumphing over evil, otherwise you're getting your enjoyment out of making someone else miserable, and hiding that behind a game narrative doesn't change it.
You shouldn't expect to have your cake and eat it too at other people's expense, and you certainly shouldn't try and convince yourself that plainly villainous behavior is somehow okay just so you can rationalize to yourself why you should get to win a fictitious war.
What I don't understand, what I think I'll NEVER understand, is Forsaken APOLOGISTS. People who actually argue in complete, out of character seriousness, the moral acceptability of the things the Forsaken do. That they're just being practical, or that the living have it coming because of some ancient grievance, or that Sylvanas is only obligated to care about what's good for HER people, to hell with everyone else. This sort of rhetoric cleaves so close to nationalistic hysterias in the real world which have preceded wars, genocides, and other atrocities.
If you want to play the bad guys, EMBRACE being a bad guy, revel in villainy...but also remember the faction you're being villainous to is, in a game like WOW, made up of real people too, and your entertainment should not come from ruining THEIR entertainment. So yeah, you're gonna lose in the end. You're always gonna lose in the end and get your comeuppance, because that's how being the bad guy works. If it's a singleplayer game, sure, have at, be as bad as you like with no consequences. But in an MMO, you have to go into playing a villain understanding and accepting that cycle of good triumphing over evil, otherwise you're getting your enjoyment out of making someone else miserable, and hiding that behind a game narrative doesn't change it.
You shouldn't expect to have your cake and eat it too at other people's expense, and you certainly shouldn't try and convince yourself that plainly villainous behavior is somehow okay just so you can rationalize to yourself why you should get to win a fictitious war.
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It’s less that Garithos was a prick who deserved it, and more of all those countless lordaeron humans she lead on to believe that they would get Capitol City back if they fought beside her. When the human army completed their end of the bargain, they were met with a forsaken army that pushed them summarily out.
Boo hoo. Forsaken don’t deserve empathy for being so arrogant that they think they can pull that off, ask the humans for help afterwards, and then when human retaliate and say piss off, they DARE claim oppression. Give me a break.
Again, I think it's rather pointed that nobody really seems to give a !@#$. What's the alternative option? live out in the wilds and get murdered by the other humans who definitely hate you? Or fight Garithos and his boys to get back into the city you used to live in? That's not even a choice.
Cry me a %^-*ing river.
10/26/2018 08:36 PMPosted by Darethy10/26/2018 08:31 PMPosted by BaultennChill out Darethy damn.
1) Sylvanas betrayed Garithos, and is mad when humans retaliate? Okay.
2) Genn is perfectly justified in his disgust for the Forsaken. They barged into his homeland, enslaved and experimented on his people, worked them to death, and carved their bodies into a sewn together mess.
3) You’re more mad about Genn in Stormheim, than Sylvanas outright hiding her true intentions for being there from her own people, to enslave Eyir, which would GREATLY hinder our chances of getting the Aegis? Okay.
This isn't even about Sylvanas at this point, Sylvanas is a side to how I feel. I could give less of a !@#$ what Genn thinks about Sylvanas, it's what he did to the people of Lordaeron. I do think it's funny you bring up Garithos though, I don't think that anyone, even most people in the current Alliance, care given that %^-*!@#s viewpoints on the world.
And I feel oh so sorry that we were forced at gunpoint to attack the miserable wretch of a human being that literally watched us be eaten alive by the scourge, then tossed his hands up to the heavens and shouted he'd been vindicated all along! My heart bleeds for you.
I have no chill.
I mean we could rage at each other about how you/I deserve to die all day in World's End Tavern, but outside of the game, we're all human beings, my guy.
And trust me, I'm not fond of humans in real life either, but we all have to live with them every single day. It's always a matter of adaptation.
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10/26/2018 08:24 PMPosted by DarethySo, where to begin....
I'm still working on a response to you. I'm trying to respond to everyone individually. Might take me a while if the thread starts moving faster.
10/26/2018 08:42 PMPosted by Lyricalla
I mean we could rage at each other about how you/I deserve to die all day in World's End Tavern, but outside of the game, we're all human beings, my guy.
And trust me, I'm not fond of humans in real life either, but we all have to live with them every single day. It's always a matter of adaptation.
And if you like Worgen, good for you, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But don't try to push me into sympathizing with them, that boat sailed a long time ago.
10/26/2018 08:31 PMPosted by YersyniaOnly posting
At least I now not to expect any more responses from you. Saves me some time.
Darethy... this is uncharacteristically hotheaded of you. You're better than this.
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10/26/2018 08:38 PMPosted by Liuv10/26/2018 08:31 PMPosted by YersyniaOnly posting because liking Darethy’s post isn’t enough. He says what many of us feel - !@#$ redemption.
Shame that. Your faction was founded on the idea.
No. The Orcs were seeking a new life after they were redeemed. The Tauren did not need redemption. The Darkspear did not need redemption. The Horde was founded on the theme of survival through unity - of making a *new* life, not wallowing in the old one.
‘Redemption’ on Alliance terms is just the smothering of agency, and coupled with the kind of history Darethy outlined, is hypocritical arrogance at its worst.
The Forsaken didn’t send the ‘Hand of Redemption’ to Northrend.
10/26/2018 08:42 PMPosted by DarethyIt’s less that Garithos was a prick who deserved it, and more of all those countless lordaeron humans she lead on to believe that they would get Capitol City back if they fought beside her. When the human army completed their end of the bargain, they were met with a forsaken army that pushed them summarily out.
Boo hoo. Forsaken don’t deserve empathy for being so arrogant that they think they can pull that off, ask the humans for help afterwards, and then when human retaliate and say piss off, they DARE claim oppression. Give me a break.
Again, I think it's rather pointed that nobody really seems to give a !@#$. What's the alternative option? live out in the wilds and get murdered by the other humans who definitely hate you? Or fight Garithos and his boys to get back into the city you used to live in? That's not even a choice.
Cry me a %^-*ing river.
Wow given that you actually have the choice to make that decision and decide the fate of thousands of humans, you guys sure seemed oppressed.
The entire lying to the humans, telling the forsaken that they wouldn’t be accepted, to justify this little stunt, and then going to the humans right after to ask for an Alliance, is pure stupidity, arrogance, and cowardice.
Sorry, but from the actual look of things, Genn is a saint compared to the people you claim to support.
It's kinda scary actually.10/26/2018 08:45 PMPosted by GrandbladeDarethy... this is uncharacteristically hotheaded of you. You're better than this.
My dad used to display this level of anger at my mother during my childhood. Wasn't a happy childhood.
10/26/2018 08:45 PMPosted by GrandbladeDarethy... this is uncharacteristically hotheaded of you. You're better than this.
It's a combination of anger and apathy, to be quite honest. BfA has been for the last couple months a zero sum game of the other faction needs to suffer because my faction suffered.
That and the sheer amount of suffering that Genn allowed to happen is, to be frank, generating a rather visceral reaction out of me. As is the insinuation that we should not of fought Garithos and instead just wandered out into the woods to be victimized by whoever or whatever else was out there.
It was a whole lot of ugly choices, we picked the only one that really ensured we'd survive.
10/26/2018 08:40 PMPosted by CalixtoI don't hate the Forsaken. I pity them in a way and I understand why they do what they do. I only wish they asked permission first before they forced others into undeath with them. Not everyone wants to be reanimated after they die and it's unfair to ignore their feelings on the matter just because you "need to survive". It's precisely that thinking that has other races viewing them with such disdain. It would probably be easier for the Forsaken to establish themselves in any given area if they weren't seemingly finding new ways to get everyone to hate them to justify some of the messed up things they do. I'm thinking the Forsaken can be left alone and not hurt anyone and maybe if someone wants to reanimate after death, they can and they'll have a home with the Forsaken. Boom, zero boundaries crossed. The Forsaken aren't giving others more reasons and excuses to actively seek their destruction and they'd be working towards showing the other races that they can hold their own and that they are not the monsters everyone makes them out to be.
I very much agree with your post.
10/26/2018 08:40 PMPosted by CalixtoThanks for sharing your post. I sympathize because I also suffer from severe depression and getting into the game's lore and playing is pretty much the only thing keeping me alive at this point and I have a husband and a father with cancer.
Take care. I hope one day you'll find something really worth living for.
Thank you. And thank you for sharing about yourself, and your husband and father as well.
10/26/2018 08:46 PMPosted by YersyniaNo. The Orcs were seeking a new life after they were redeemed. The Tauren did not need redemption. The Darkspear did not need redemption. The Horde was founded on the theme of survival through unity - of making a *new* life, not wallowing in the old one.
That is redemption. Living well, not being tools for an evil or power or purpose, striving to better themselves and have the society that they wanted and fits them. That is literally their redemption, the one that they took for themselves. The concept that you're erroneously using that word to try and describe is forgiveness. That the Horde has never cared to ask for.
Okay this is where I'm gonna have to ask you to stop. I understand you guys have different opinions about this, but now is not the time or place to argue about it.10/26/2018 08:46 PMPosted by Baultenn
Wow given that you actually have the choice to make that decision and decide the fate of thousands of humans, you guys sure seemed oppressed.
The entire lying to the humans, telling the forsaken that they wouldn’t be accepted, to justify this little stunt, and then going to the humans right after to ask for an Alliance, is pure stupidity, arrogance, and cowardice.
Sorry, but from the actual look of things, Genn is a saint compared to the people you claim to support.
Everyone needs to calm down, take a step back and remember that this at it's rawest core is just a game. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but there are still lines that shouldn't be crossed. Please respect that.
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