10/27/2018 10:02 AMPosted by
Darethy
Some people don't pay as much reverence toward the outside material, some people think it's as good as what's in the MMO, and some feel it's better then what we have in the MMO.
For example I have characters like Felgrim who other people have probably never even heard about. He's a Forsaken from the comic books that gathered the ingredients for Putress's blight at the Wrathgate. It's made clear he actually had no idea what was going on, but nonetheless feels immense regret for his actions resulting in this line:
"There is no excuse for what I did. My hand helped in creating the plague used at the Wrath Gate. It does not matter whether I knew their intentions or not. If I truly had honor, I would have questioned the Grand Apothecary."
Tip for the writers by the way, if you wanted me to feel sympathy for Saurfang, saying something like that where he acknowledges his own faults and it's partly his wrong. Rather then say, have him mope in a jail cell stating he'd never return to Sylvanas's horde for the sake of honor, as if he had grounds to define what honor is and is not, would REALLY help my empathy for him.
This is a problem Blizzard engineered for themselves, because based on how much you value this information your opinions on the story would vary wildly.
I completely agree with you. And to admit, ever since attaching to the Night Elves, outside material has been more meaningful to me.
Elegy can still make me cry like a baby if I read it again. The Night Elf Druid Teshara is probably one of my favorite Night Elf characters of all time, and she doesn't even show up in the game.
10/27/2018 10:13 AMPosted by
Darethy
I do take a fair bit of issue with the bit about Forsaken propagation though. I think it's worth noting that yes, they are temporarily inflicting their condition on a person, but if it's an opt out and also the only way to ask I don't see much harm in it.
Except it seems that by being raised, dying again sends you straight to the Shadowlands. At least, that seems to be the fate implied by Sylvanas' story. So people that were previously resting peacefully come back, tell her "Nah I'm good," and then go back to sleep to find themselves in unlit purga-hell.
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10/27/2018 09:57 AMPosted by
Treng
I hate them because any time Sylvanas acts as leader for the Horde, the Horde is instantly made Class-Five Stupid to compensate for adhering to her clearly messed up mandates. Also to make her appear mega brilliant.
Instead of the Forsaken being the black sheep of the Horde, they become this all-encompassing miasma that, if they're present, means you're going to look dumb to benefit their story.
This doesn't work out for the Horde's players, Forsaken or not. It makes people resentful. Blizzard's making a really dumb mistake using it so much, especially during this, a faction pride expansion.
Rather than Orcs vs Humans, Blizzard expanded by making it Humans vs Humans.
Human potential is infecting both the Horde and the Alliance.
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Hey guys, I don't really have too much to add to y'alls discussion, but I want to say I deeply appreciate how much y'alls dialogue is to atleast my eye representing when these forums are at their best :)
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10/27/2018 10:15 AMPosted by
Jerolan
10/27/2018 10:13 AMPosted by
Darethy
I do take a fair bit of issue with the bit about Forsaken propagation though. I think it's worth noting that yes, they are temporarily inflicting their condition on a person, but if it's an opt out and also the only way to ask I don't see much harm in it.
Except it seems that by being raised, dying again sends you straight to the Shadowlands. At least, that seems to be the fate implied by Sylvanas' story. So people that were previously resting peacefully come back, tell her "Nah I'm good," and then go back to sleep to find themselves in unlit purga-hell.
Have you done the Defenders of Darrowshire quest in the Western Plaguelands? that all but explicitly states your soul is unaffected by undeath. Sylvanas had done so many shady things at that point that she'd been closed off to her personal afterlife.
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10/27/2018 10:17 AMPosted by
Darethy
Sylvanas had done so many shady things at that point that she'd been closed off to her personal afterlife.
... Maaaybe she should stop tripling down on those then.
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10/27/2018 10:19 AMPosted by
Jerolan
10/27/2018 10:17 AMPosted by
Darethy
Sylvanas had done so many shady things at that point that she'd been closed off to her personal afterlife.
... Maaaybe she should stop tripling down on those then.
This kind of goes into a broader question about WoW's morality that I kind of find to be !@#$ed up, and encourages this.
The entire side plot of Arthas in WotlK is that he had done so much stuff at this point that he was beyond redemption. If there's no hope for rehabilitation, is there ever really an incentive to try and be a good person again? and if you do, what does it say that no matter how good you are, you may still wind up in hell?
10/27/2018 10:13 AMPosted by
Darethy
I do take a fair bit of issue with the bit about Forsaken propagation though. I think it's worth noting that yes, they are temporarily inflicting their condition on a person, but if it's an opt out and also the only way to ask I don't see much harm in it.
I completely disagree, but entirely based on the following: the dead can't give consent. You can ask them once they are raised if they want to keep being Undead, you can ask them if they want to join the Forsaken, but that choice is being forced on them. They are completely incomparable to Thomas Zelling, who got to make his choice while he was still alive. The dead never got the choice to be Undead. They were forced. And I do not find that acceptable, and I do not believe I ever will.
10/27/2018 10:13 AMPosted by
Darethy
Numbers provide safety, security, and if the people in question for...any number of reasons really...decide to continue in undeath when they could end it at any time? clearly they aren't suffering THAT much.
See, this might be a presentation that is only given to the Alliance, because these are some of the things that some Forsaken NPC have said when killed:
- Abandon hope!
- Dark Lady...
- Death to the living!
- For Sylvanas!
- For the Dark Lady!
- No... no...
- Oh... not this again...
These all don't necessarily speak to suffering. However, the following one obviously does:
- You will suffer as we have!
And the final one that actually goes against the very notion that they even want to be Undead:
10/27/2018 09:42 AMPosted by
Droité
This has a lot to do with the Sylvanas cult of personality IMO.
This is the only other explanation often provided, and it seems even worse since it's framed as their sadism streak continuing solely to benefit themselves, or even the one person at the top. The problem with the forsaken is that they almost thematically cannot build, only take. They make settlements here and there sure, but it most often seems to be built around or within existing structures in Lordaeron.
And if they do succeed in their goal what would the world look like? Probably Dark Souls. Everyone would just be undead and depressed and stagnant, waiting to die as they languish about fallen kingdoms. What fun. I guess there might be Old Gods too, but why bother with them?
Well ... no, if Sylvie was truly concerned about the continued survival of her people, and by extension herself ... she would probably do something more pragmatic. Her people need the living to exist to reproduce and for maintenance, so...
... To that end, if she won the war she'd slaughter and raise as many of the citizens of SW as she needed to make her Forsaken near untouchable, and then gather up the remainder of humanity (and elves perhaps) and turn them into cattle. They'd contain them, breed them, raise then, and then harvest them for parts when they were ready to slaughter. She'd also keep the opportunity open for a few lucky, loyal few to obtain her "gift" and join the "New Order" of the Forsaken empire.
The rest of the Horde would be kept inline with the MASSIVE military advantage that the Forsaken now hold at the end of the war. If a faction of them ever did try to rebel, she'd simply slaughter them as swiftly as she slaughtered her people in "BtS". She would in essence create a "lasting peace", by becoming the sole "eternal" dictator of all of Azeroth. She'd be the only real power, a goddess of life and death, with all races that are not Fosaken being effectively second-class citizens or produce.
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10/27/2018 10:28 AMPosted by
Amadis
10/27/2018 10:13 AMPosted by
Darethy
I do take a fair bit of issue with the bit about Forsaken propagation though. I think it's worth noting that yes, they are temporarily inflicting their condition on a person, but if it's an opt out and also the only way to ask I don't see much harm in it.
I completely disagree, but entirely based on the following: the dead can't give consent. You can ask them once they are raised if they want to keep being Undead, you can ask them if they want to join the Forsaken, but that choice is being forced on them. They are completely incomparable to Thomas Zelling, who got to make his choice while he was still alive. The dead never got the choice to be Undead. They were forced. And I do not find that acceptable, and I do not believe I ever will.
10/27/2018 10:13 AMPosted by
Darethy
Numbers provide safety, security, and if the people in question for...any number of reasons really...decide to continue in undeath when they could end it at any time? clearly they aren't suffering THAT much.
See, this might be a presentation that is only given to the Alliance, because these are some of the things that some Forsaken NPC have said when killed:
- Abandon hope!
- Dark Lady...
- Death to the living!
- For Sylvanas!
- For the Dark Lady!
- No... no...
- Oh... not this again...
These all don't necessarily speak to suffering. However, the following one obviously does:
- You will suffer as we have!
And the final one that actually goes against the very notion that they even want to be Undead:
I'd chalk that up to cultural differences. The survival of oneself, ones nation, and everyone around themself trumps temporary suffering of another individual. Especially if that suffering is not done with any malicious intent, it's merely the cost of living. No more good, or bad, then the price in blood a nation has to expend in the day to day managing of it's affairs.
I'm probably indirectly funding a sweatshop whenever I go out to buy shoes, i'm not going to stop buying shoes though.
For the second, that's a very wide range of perspectives. They also are so broad they could mean a multitude of things. What suffering are they talking about? Are they suffering now? Before? is it suffering from Undeath or is it suffering even at the hands of the Alliance? more then a few Forsaken would agree with that last statement.
Hell even the very last one you give isn't damning evidence in and of itself, cultures have viewed death as a release for eons, people who are old(And I imagine people who have lived twice now.) do not necessarily want to die, but view it as a weight being lifted off their shoulders.
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10/27/2018 10:36 AMPosted by
Darethy
I'd chalk that up to cultural differences. The survival of oneself, ones nation, and everyone around themself trumps temporary suffering of another individual. Especially if that suffering is not done with any malicious intent, it's merely the cost of living. No more good, or bad, then the price in blood a nation has to expend in the day to day managing of it's affairs.
I'm probably indirectly funding a sweatshop whenever I go out to buy shoes, i'm not going to stop buying shoes though.
For the second, that's a very wide range of perspectives. They also are so broad they could mean a multitude of things. What suffering are they talking about? Are they suffering now? Before? is it suffering from Undeath or is it suffering even at the hands of the Alliance? more then a few Forsaken would agree with that last statement.
Hell even the very last one you give isn't damning evidence in and of itself, cultures have viewed death as a release for eons, people who are old(And I imagine people who have lived twice now.) do not necessarily want to die, but view it as a weight being lifted off their shoulders.
I agree with everything you said here. All your points are well put.
10/27/2018 10:35 AMPosted by
Droité
She would in essence create a "lasting peace", by becoming the sole "eternal" dictator of all of Azeroth. She'd be the only real power, a goddess of life and death, with all races that are not Fosaken being effectively second-class citizens or produce.
This sounds hyperbolic.
But then I remembered that she
knows that whatever plan she has cooked up is going to be opposed by cosmic entities, like
Elune. So it has to be something suitably grandiose and twisted. And I admit your post does meet that criteria...
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10/27/2018 10:21 AMPosted by
Darethy
This kind of goes into a broader question about WoW's morality that I kind of find to be !@#$ed up, and encourages this.
The entire side plot of Arthas in WotlK is that he had done so much stuff at this point that he was beyond redemption. If there's no hope for rehabilitation, is there ever really an incentive to try and be a good person again? and if you do, what does it say that no matter how good you are, you may still wind up in hell?
Oddly enough, I've found the opposite side with Elune. Two Satyr are reverted back to Night Elves in game. One was Priestess Driana in Azsuna, who was a ghost Satyr, and was reverted into a ghost Night Elf, and she rejoined the Court of Farondis. The other, more obvious and prominent one, is Avrus Illwhisper in Ashenvale that tears his own heart out to cure a dying Night Elf and he does become a Night Elf again, Avrus the Redeemed, by Elune's will.
This seems to be a tendency for Elune, as we see it with Zamael Lunthistle's ghost in the Searing Gorge, who joined the Twilight's Hammer, but repented to Elune, and his soul was forgiven by Elune.
This is a strange story trope that a lot of media has accustomed us to. This moral paradigm that doesn't work on a "scale of deeds" system but is rather simply having an all-forgiving god that will accept any repentance as long as it's sincere enough.
10/27/2018 10:39 AMPosted by
Amadis
10/27/2018 10:36 AMPosted by
Darethy
I'd chalk that up to cultural differences. The survival of oneself, ones nation, and everyone around themself trumps temporary suffering of another individual. Especially if that suffering is not done with any malicious intent, it's merely the cost of living. No more good, or bad, then the price in blood a nation has to expend in the day to day managing of it's affairs.
I'm probably indirectly funding a sweatshop whenever I go out to buy shoes, i'm not going to stop buying shoes though.
For the second, that's a very wide range of perspectives. They also are so broad they could mean a multitude of things. What suffering are they talking about? Are they suffering now? Before? is it suffering from Undeath or is it suffering even at the hands of the Alliance? more then a few Forsaken would agree with that last statement.
Hell even the very last one you give isn't damning evidence in and of itself, cultures have viewed death as a release for eons, people who are old(And I imagine people who have lived twice now.) do not necessarily want to die, but view it as a weight being lifted off their shoulders.
I agree with everything you said here. All your points are well put.
Also one other thing too while i'm still awake enough for this tangent(I haven't slept all night.) in war, and especially in the nightmare hellscape that is war in World of Warcraft, it's also not going to be adding that much to their suffering. After all if they are an enemy troop we just got done stabbing them, definitely without their consent, and probably killing them in a painful manner.
Raising them to ask a question doesn't really compare to what is after all a killing. Especially if we factor in the more !@#$ed up ways to die to enemy troops in WoW which includes burning to death, freezing, being raised as ACTUAL mindless undead, thrown through a void portal to have your soul devoured by nameless horrors from the outer spheres, and hell that last one is something that thusfar only the Alliance has displayed the capability to do.
It's unsavory, but by no means the worst thing in the world.
10/27/2018 10:35 AMPosted by
Droité
She would in essence create a "lasting peace", by becoming the sole "eternal" dictator of all of Azeroth. She'd be the only real power, a goddess of life and death, with all races that are not Fosaken being effectively second-class citizens or produce.
This sounds hyperbolic.
But then I remembered that she knows that whatever plan she has cooked up is going to be opposed by cosmic entities, like Elune. So it has to be something suitably grandiose and twisted. And I admit your post does meet that criteria...
Oh, its absolutely hyperbolic ... but the fact that its not something I can take off the table as something Sylvanas would do (despite how absurd it seems) says a lot. It is, on paper, and idealized ending for her in her current mindset. She'd essentially guarantee her own survival (and those of the Forsaken) into perpetuity by making them so powerful on their own that they no longer are dependent on the Horde; and the Alliance is no longer a threat.
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10/27/2018 10:35 AMPosted by
Droité
... To that end, if she won the war she'd slaughter and raise as many of the citizens of SW as she needed to make her Forsaken near untouchable, and then gather up the remainder of humanity (and elves perhaps) and turn them into cattle. They'd contain them, breed them, raise then, and then harvest them for parts when they were ready to slaughter. She'd also keep the opportunity open for a few lucky, loyal few to obtain her "gift" and join the "New Order" of the Forsaken empire.
... Whose f-list are you reading?
I dont hate the Forsaken, I hate Sylvanas. And it's because she's a gigantic narrative blackhole that sucks up all development from everybody around her into herself.
Since its inception, the Forsaken story has been Sylvanas' story. Now as Warchief of the Horde, more and more of the Horde story as a whole is becoming just Sylvanas' story. Its getting so bad that large chunks of the Alliance's story is now just in reaction to Sylvanas.
Frankly I'm kind of shocked that way more Forsaken players aren't annoyed that their faction doesn't really get development as a whole (Outside of very specific and small cases) and instead its all just constantly lumped onto their leader. This doesn't happen to nearly a severe a degree as any other playable faction.
The Forsaken themselves are very interesting as a concept, it just sucks that 99.9% of their development is given to Sylvanas, who is a mustache-twirling villain but gets away with it because the story coddles her. They were finally showing more interesting sides of the Forsaken with Before the Storm, showing that not every Forsaken is some crazy, "Let's kill everyone because we're edgelords," but then all of those characters died.
Luckily Zelling is shaping up to be very interesting and the kind of Forsaken that I hope becomes a larger character. I really wish Elsie would have survived so we had another Forsaken character who wasn't a crazy sociopath. I'm not really counting Lilian Voss as a Forsaken (faction) character yet, they seem to be going out of their way (Maybe just due to complaints but who knows) to show she seems to not be on board with team Sylvanas, but just here to help out new Forsaken.
Unfortunately, in contrast to my comments about Zelling, every new Forsaken character besides him seem to fall into the same trope. Sira just flips completely and is all bloodthirsty out of nowhere. Delaryn immediately starts spouting the Sylvanas lines, and I strongly doubt Lorash is going to become less bloodthirsty.
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10/27/2018 10:48 AMPosted by
Jerolan
10/27/2018 10:35 AMPosted by
Droité
... To that end, if she won the war she'd slaughter and raise as many of the citizens of SW as she needed to make her Forsaken near untouchable, and then gather up the remainder of humanity (and elves perhaps) and turn them into cattle. They'd contain them, breed them, raise then, and then harvest them for parts when they were ready to slaughter. She'd also keep the opportunity open for a few lucky, loyal few to obtain her "gift" and join the "New Order" of the Forsaken empire.
... Whose f-list are you reading?
LOL, its not an uncommon theme. Even iZombie touched on this. If you want to make a self-perpetuating sentient civilization of undead (when those undead are reliant on the survival of the living to continue their existence), then you turn them into cattle. You adjust "the living" to serve your people's needs. Vampire: The Masquerade also touches on this theme from the vampire perspective.
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10/27/2018 10:52 AMPosted by
Droité
10/27/2018 10:48 AMPosted by
Jerolan
...... Whose f-list are you reading?
LOL, its not an uncommon theme. Even iZombie touched on this. If you want to make a self-perpetuating sentient civilization of undead (when those undead are reliant on the survival of the living to continue their existence), then you turn them into cattle. You adjust "the living" to serve your people's needs. Vampire: The Masquerade also touches on this theme from the vampire perspective.
Yep, plenty of books and heck even movies (think how Blade series Vamps saw things) have used this trope before. It is ALSO the logical endpoint of Sylvanas' offensive realist world view mixed with her desire to perpetuate the forsaken as a race.
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OP, I resent the Forsaken too (the npcs, not the players) though my reasons arent as deep and personal as yours.
(i'll explain it with bulletpoints since this thread is already long enough)
-The forsaken are intrinsically tied to Sylvanas. As an example: If she decided that pink is now their national color and dressing up as anduin was mandatory under penalty of death, they would be all over that
-Sylvanas becomes more like Arthas by the patch, Valtrois even compared the forsaken to flippin legion. And before that she literally had an Arthas flashback while pulling her own fall of quel'thalas on the nelves where Delaryn was the new sylvanas
-The scourge deserved to be eradicated, we had an entire expac of doing that and the only reason they werent eradicated is probally bc someone at the dev team really liked pirates of the caribbean 3
-the forsaken cannot be eradicated bc they are a playable race. We have killed a lot of things over the years that were less evil but they basically get a free pass to do whatever and only now are they being started to be called out ingame(mildly, at that)
I agree with some posters here, the forsaken dont need redemptions or cures: they need to tone down the scourge- i dont even care if it takes Calia replacing Sylvie or something stupid like that
inb4: "DK post bc they did things in legion!" yeah dont even try- i wont reply if you do- im not posting as gharion the ally dk toon but rather just a dude behind a pc
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