10/27/2018 09:05 AMPosted by
Darethy
BfA
That's what I'm missing, though. In BfA, all I'm seeing is Thomas Zelling. All the other people you listed have not played that role again BfA, if they have showed up at all. Except for Voss, who is actually taken a turn for the worse and participating in raising the Undead unwillingly, which she was the very voice of being against before. If anything, Voss' changes weakens the idea of the Forsaken from Lordaeron questioning Sylvanas.
And even with Nathanos questioning Sylvanas in
Before the Storm, in
A Good War all of that feels completely erased, so it's difficult for me to foresee him being the voice to question Sylvanas again, unless Droité is right and Sylvanas turns entirely against her own people in front of Nathanos' eyes again.
10/27/2018 09:01 AMPosted by
Tewdee
Others could wish to make the most out of their situation and rebuild their former lives. A farmer returning to tending to his fields or a mason which wants to rebuild the capital to it's former glory, etc.
I would also enjoy more an an exploration of this, I agree.
10/27/2018 09:12 AMPosted by
Amadis
10/27/2018 09:05 AMPosted by
Darethy
BfA
That's what I'm missing, though. In BfA, all I'm seeing is Thomas Zelling. All the other people you listed have not played that role again BfA, if they have showed up at all. Except for Voss, who is actually taken a turn for the worse and participating in raising the Undead unwillingly, which she was the very voice of being against before. If anything, Voss' changes weakens the idea of the Forsaken from Lordaeron questioning Sylvanas.
And even with Nathanos questioning Sylvanas in Before the Storm, in A Good War all of that feels completely erased, so it's difficult for me to foresee him being the voice to question Sylvanas again, unless Droité is right and Sylvanas turns entirely against her own people in front of Nathanos' eyes again.
Well that's a more complicated issue, though keep in mind Voss was 'conscripted' into the war, it seems like she's just trying to minimize damage more then anything.
But Before the Storm strongly supports that idea the Forsaken are having their identity crisis from Cata amped up now, which isn't shown in game but...well just look at our posts about the
Shattering.We have to accept unfortunately that pretty much all racial development is only being showed in the MMO we're playing to a very limited degree.
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10/27/2018 09:15 AMPosted by
Darethy
We have to accept unfortunately that pretty much all racial development is only being showed in the MMO we're playing to a very limited degree.
I will agree that Blizzard has a huge tendency to put a lot of important developments in material outside the game.
But my greater issue with
Before the Storm is that the Forsaken who were having an identity crisis were entirely killed off. And their graves actually were put in the game for emphasis.
10/27/2018 09:13 AMPosted by
Amadis
10/27/2018 09:01 AMPosted by
Tewdee
Others could wish to make the most out of their situation and rebuild their former lives. A farmer returning to tending to his fields or a mason which wants to rebuild the capital to it's former glory, etc.
I would also enjoy more an an exploration of this, I agree.
Every race could do with alot more slice of life stories. That's part of why I find Stormwindian Humans so boring. Even though they dominate Alliance content, I can't tell you anything about their culture other than their love of lions and the color blue. Nothing that really shows me what it means to be from Stormwind, or get me invested in safeguarding Joe Commoner's day-to-day life, beyond a vague sense of "it's the right thing to do".
1 Like
Every race could do with alot more slice of life stories.
That they certainly could.
10/27/2018 09:20 AMPosted by
Amadis
10/27/2018 09:15 AMPosted by
Darethy
We have to accept unfortunately that pretty much all racial development is only being showed in the MMO we're playing to a very limited degree.
I will agree that Blizzard has a huge tendency to put a lot of important developments in material outside the game.
But my greater issue with Before the Storm is that the Forsaken who were having an identity crisis were entirely killed off. And their graves actually were put in the game for emphasis.
Yeah, but the entire reason for that was basically showing that the Forsaken could, and probably are given the push for the Gathering, trying to attach to their former lives, just because their representation was killed doesn't mean Forsaken with that mentality cease to exist.
....And I don't even know how to describe Blizzards fetish for putting CRITICAL information in the books. A faction leader died in The Shattering, an entire nation had it's rights violated as Varian Wrynn went over to Ironforge personally to change their system of government.
I just...can't even.
1 Like
10/27/2018 09:25 AMPosted by
Darethy
Yeah, but the entire reason for that was basically showing that the Forsaken could, and probably are given the push for the Gathering, trying to attach to their former lives, just because their representation was killed doesn't mean Forsaken with that mentality cease to exist.
I will agree that their representation, even with their executions, still signifies the existence of their mentality within the Forsaken.
It is more my concern of the metanarrative of Blizzard's willingness to show this in game, or, given the graves and the changes to Voss, the metanarrative of Blizzard's unwillingness to show the attendants of the Gathering's mentality still exists.
10/26/2018 05:05 PMPosted by
Amadis
I hate them forcing more people to suffer the same fate they have.
I can't speak to any of your personal experiences but this is probably the one reason that I can't really relate to the forsaken. The weird nihilism/sadism that drives them to bring undeath to other things because... well, they've done a pretty bad job of explaining why. Because they don't want the forsaken to fade away? How does one justify to themselves prolonging a culture that can only
be prolonged by making others suffer?
1 Like
10/27/2018 09:37 AMPosted by
Jerolan
10/26/2018 05:05 PMPosted by
Amadis
I hate them forcing more people to suffer the same fate they have.
I can't speak to any of your personal experiences but this is probably the one reason that I can't really relate to the forsaken. The weird nihilism/sadism that drives them to bring undeath to other things because... well, they've done a pretty bad job of explaining why. Because they don't want the forsaken to fade away? How does one justify to themselves prolonging a culture that can only be prolonged by making others suffer?
That is the core of my hate towards the Forsaken.
Though, that doesn't have to
be the only way their culture can be prolonged, as Thomas Zelling is a clear example of someone choosing to join them, as opposed to the dead not being given the choice.
10/27/2018 09:33 AMPosted by
Amadis
10/27/2018 09:25 AMPosted by
Darethy
Yeah, but the entire reason for that was basically showing that the Forsaken could, and probably are given the push for the Gathering, trying to attach to their former lives, just because their representation was killed doesn't mean Forsaken with that mentality cease to exist.
I will agree that their representation, even with their executions, still signifies the existence of their mentality within the Forsaken.
It is more my concern of the metanarrative of Blizzard's willingness to show this in game, or, given the graves and the changes to Voss, the metanarrative of Blizzard's unwillingness to show the attendants of the Gathering's mentality still exists.
I wouldn't disagree, but I think that's a wider problem with ALL of Blizzards stuff. Things happen in the books, novella's, or comics with little to no representation until they get ported into the game.
Would you believe that our entire religion didn't get ingame representation until Legion despite being described as far back as
WoW Magazine issue 4?
1 Like
10/27/2018 09:37 AMPosted by
Jerolan
10/26/2018 05:05 PMPosted by
Amadis
I hate them forcing more people to suffer the same fate they have.
I can't speak to any of your personal experiences but this is probably the one reason that I can't really relate to the forsaken. The weird nihilism/sadism that drives them to bring undeath to other things because... well, they've done a pretty bad job of explaining why. Because they don't want the forsaken to fade away? How does one justify to themselves prolonging a culture that can only be prolonged by making others suffer?
This has a lot to do with the Sylvanas cult of personality IMO. It is of benefit for her to expand their numbers, because (regardless of her personal feelings towards them outside of this) she still needs them to be "
Her Bulwark against the Infinite". Regardless of whether you think she cares for them, or not, or in what way, that truth that she's using them is still applicable.
Expanding the Forsaken's numbers expands the strength of her Bulwark. In a way, they are a meat-shield. A valuable one. And bluntly, many Forsaken tend to latch on to her every word she says (in fact many seem to outright worship her). If Sylvie says the Forsaken need to expand and spread their undeath to others to survive (regardless of her true motivations in doing so) many will believe it and act accordingly.
1 Like
10/27/2018 09:41 AMPosted by
Darethy
10/27/2018 09:33 AMPosted by
Amadis
...
I will agree that their representation, even with their executions, still signifies the existence of their mentality within the Forsaken.
It is more my concern of the metanarrative of Blizzard's willingness to show this in game, or, given the graves and the changes to Voss, the metanarrative of Blizzard's unwillingness to show the attendants of the Gathering's mentality still exists.
I wouldn't disagree, but I think that's a wider problem with ALL of Blizzards stuff. Things happen in the books, novella's, or comics with little to no representation until they get ported into the game.
I agree. Part of why I did not get connected to the Night Elves until after Cataclysm reworked the old world was because much of the Night Elf lore was in outside material,
World of Warcraft: The Comic,
Stormrage,
Wolfheart, which I read, and found interesting, but didn't make me connect to the Night Elves personally like the Cataclysm revamp of Kalimdor did. It didn't help that until
Chronicles came out it was hard to discern how the outside material even lined up with the events of the game itself.
I hate them because any time Sylvanas acts as leader for the Horde, the Horde is instantly made Class-Five Stupid to compensate for adhering to her clearly messed up mandates. Also to make her appear mega brilliant.
Instead of the Forsaken being the black sheep of the Horde, they become this all-encompassing miasma that, if they're present, means you're going to look dumb to benefit their story.
This doesn't work out for the Horde's players, Forsaken or not. It makes people resentful. Blizzard's making a really dumb mistake using it so much, especially during this, a faction pride expansion.
1 Like
10/27/2018 09:37 AMPosted by
Jerolan
10/26/2018 05:05 PMPosted by
Amadis
I hate them forcing more people to suffer the same fate they have.
I can't speak to any of your personal experiences but this is probably the one reason that I can't really relate to the forsaken. The weird nihilism/sadism that drives them to bring undeath to other things because... well, they've done a pretty bad job of explaining why. Because they don't want the forsaken to fade away? How does one justify to themselves prolonging a culture that can only be prolonged by making others suffer?
That's what I, to a certain extent, liked about the pre-Legion DKs. They still had a bit of a sense of that tragic nobility, with their "we're not really going to get a warm welcome, but we'll use these dark powers to defend this world until we're all gone, because we absolutely
will not propogate more of ourselves" thing they had.
But then Legion came, and they propogated more of themselves (to say nothing of their numerous violations of the Cenarion Circle Endangered Species Act, specifically the Dragon Protection Act ammendment, as well as the Draconic Heritage Protection Act, which states that any and all artifacts
or bodies of deceased Dragons belong explicitly to their respective Flight.)
1 Like
10/27/2018 09:53 AMPosted by
Amadis
10/27/2018 09:41 AMPosted by
Darethy
...
I wouldn't disagree, but I think that's a wider problem with ALL of Blizzards stuff. Things happen in the books, novella's, or comics with little to no representation until they get ported into the game.
I agree. Part of why I did not get connected to the Night Elves until after Cataclysm reworked the old world was because much of the Night Elf lore was in outside material, World of Warcraft: The Comic, Stormrage, Wolfheart, which I read, and found interesting, but didn't make me connect to the Night Elves personally like the Cataclysm revamp of Kalimdor did. It didn't help that until Chronicles came out it was hard to discern how the outside material even lined up with the events of the game itself.
That's probably another big difference between us, i'v talked with Felya about this before. Some people don't pay as much reverence toward the outside material, some people think it's as good as what's in the MMO, and some feel it's better then what we have in the MMO.
For example I have characters like Felgrim who other people have probably never even heard about. He's a Forsaken from the comic books that gathered the ingredients for Putress's blight at the Wrathgate. It's made clear he actually had no idea what was going on, but nonetheless feels immense regret for his actions resulting in this line:
"There is no excuse for what I did. My hand helped in creating the plague used at the Wrath Gate. It does not matter whether I knew their intentions or not. If I truly had honor, I would have questioned the Grand Apothecary."
Tip for the writers by the way, if you wanted me to feel sympathy for Saurfang, saying something like that where he acknowledges his own faults and it's partly his wrong. Rather then say, have him mope in a jail cell stating he'd never return to Sylvanas's horde for the sake of honor, as if he had grounds to define what honor is and is not, would REALLY help my empathy for him.
This is a problem Blizzard engineered for themselves, because based on how much you value this information your opinions on the story would vary wildly.
1 Like
10/27/2018 09:57 AMPosted by
Treng
I hate them because any time Sylvanas acts as leader for the Horde, the Horde is instantly made Class-Five Stupid to compensate for adhering to her clearly messed up mandates. Also to make her appear mega brilliant.
Instead of the Forsaken being the black sheep of the Horde, they become this all-encompassing miasma that, if they're present, means you're going to look dumb to benefit their story.
This doesn't work out for the Horde's players, Forsaken or not. It makes people resentful. Blizzard's making a really dumb mistake using it so much, especially during this, a faction pride expansion.
I agree with this. Sylvanas is the root of most of their evil.
10/27/2018 09:42 AMPosted by
Droité
This has a lot to do with the Sylvanas cult of personality IMO.
This is the only other explanation often provided, and it seems even worse since it's framed as their sadism streak continuing solely to benefit themselves, or even the one person at the top. The problem with the forsaken is that they almost thematically cannot build, only take. They make settlements here and there sure, but it most often seems to be built around or within existing structures in Lordaeron.
And if they do succeed in their goal what would the world look like? Probably Dark Souls. Everyone would just be undead and depressed and stagnant, waiting to die as they languish about fallen kingdoms. What fun. I guess there might be Old Gods too, but why bother with them?
That's what I, to a certain extent, liked about the pre-Legion DKs. They still had a bit of a sense of that tragic nobility, with their "we're not really going to get a warm welcome, but we'll use these dark powers to defend this world until we're all gone, because we absolutely will not propogate more of ourselves" thing they had.
But then Legion came, and they propogated more of themselves
That's true as well, but for the Ebon Blade it feels different because they aren't raising people that they've just slaughtered solely to subjugate them, and as far as we know Bolvar isn't building up the Scourge again just to protect himself from an undesirable fate.
Attacking the Silver Hand is reaching critical douche levels of course, no denying that. But using necromancy against a threat like the Legion that already threatens to use your soul and others as fuel to be burnt? There's a case to be made in bringing soldiers back to fight, as there was with fighting the Scourge.
1 Like
10/27/2018 09:37 AMPosted by
Jerolan
...I can't speak to any of your personal experiences but this is probably the one reason that I can't really relate to the forsaken. The weird nihilism/sadism that drives them to bring undeath to other things because... well, they've done a pretty bad job of explaining why. Because they don't want the forsaken to fade away? How does one justify to themselves prolonging a culture that can only be prolonged by making others suffer?
That's what I, to a certain extent, liked about the pre-Legion DKs. They still had a bit of a sense of that tragic nobility, with their "we're not really going to get a warm welcome, but we'll use these dark powers to defend this world until we're all gone, because we absolutely will not propogate more of ourselves" thing they had.
But then Legion came, and they propogated more of themselves (to say nothing of their numerous violations of the Cenarion Circle Endangered Species Act, specifically the Dragon Protection Act ammendment, as well as the Draconic Heritage Protection Act, which states that any and all artifacts or bodies of deceased Dragons belong explicitly to their respective Flight.)
I completely agree. I refused to do the Frost Death Knight artifact quests, Unholy Death Knight artifact quests, or Legionfall Campaign on my main Night Elf Death Knight.
Though I did do them all for all the vanity items on my throw away Blood Elf Death Knight I use to roleplay a High Elf, but even then - even with not touching a single mob in the Red Dragon Santuary - it was appalling. ... Though I will admit the final scenario where you run through the glacial iceberg with the feral ghouls hounding you was, gameplay wise, really fun.
I do take a fair bit of issue with the bit about Forsaken propagation though. I think it's worth noting that yes, they are temporarily inflicting their condition on a person, but if it's an opt out and also the only way to ask I don't see much harm in it. If you're in the middle of a war, and let's not kid ourselves, with our without Gilneas the Alliance would of had designs on Loraderon eventually due to Varian...then you may as well ask while you're there.
Numbers provide safety, security, and if the people in question for...any number of reasons really...decide to continue in undeath when they could end it at any time? clearly they aren't suffering THAT much.