Why I Hate The Forsaken

10/27/2018 10:47 AMPosted by Droité
Oh, its absolutely hyperbolic ... but the fact that its not something I can take off the table as something Sylvanas would do (despite how absurd it seems) says a lot. It is, on paper, and idealized ending for her in her current mindset. She'd essentially guarantee her own survival (and those of the Forsaken) into perpetuity by making them so powerful on their own that they no longer are dependent on the Horde; and the Alliance is no longer a threat.

It really does make me rethink that bit of inner monologue Sylvanas had about entities like Elune opposing her.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I love Elune, but she's a pretty hands-off Goddess. She's not really big on intercession, and is generally content to let the Night Elves stand on their own two feet, until asked for a favor. So whatever Sylvanas' plan is has to be a pretty big deal.
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10/27/2018 10:55 AMPosted by Saiphas
10/27/2018 10:52 AMPosted by Droité
...

LOL, its not an uncommon theme. Even iZombie touched on this. If you want to make a self-perpetuating sentient civilization of undead (when those undead are reliant on the survival of the living to continue their existence), then you turn them into cattle. You adjust "the living" to serve your people's needs. Vampire: The Masquerade also touches on this theme from the vampire perspective.


Yep, plenty of books and heck even movies (think how Blade series Vamps saw things) have used this trope before. It is ALSO the logical endpoint of Sylvanas' offensive realist world view mixed with her desire to perpetuate the forsaken as a race.


If only she could see what we see, and realize that the almighty Blizzard gods will never have the Alliance wage a war of extinction while simultaneously creating dozens of nonsensical border skirmishes over nothing that ensures enough corpses for her people to last perpetually.

Then she'd know all she'd need to do is just sit on her butt in Undercity. :P
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Amadis, as there is only a limited ability to convey tone through text, please understand that what I am saying here is meant with compassion. Your personal story hit me like a sack of bricks, and there are aspects of it that I can relate to. I, too, felt a degree of alienation from my peers during my high school years (though for me, it was entirely a result of being socially inept). I, too, lost all motivation in college, and ultimately withdrew into myself and dropped out.

However, there was one element that stuck out to me that I haven't personally experienced, but which was familiar to me.

What I did comprehend, though, at the time, was a message I heard over and over again. I don’t remember who said this specifically to me, but I remember reacting at the age of seven to the message of “I always feel God’s love.” Whether you were white or otherwise, most everyone was Christian of one form or another, or Jewish. But at the age of seven, I looked around at the world after hearing that, and then looked inwards, and I realized… I didn’t. I didn’t feel God’s love. I didn’t understand these people. They looked content and happy from God loving them. Why didn’t I? I looked around, at the age of seven, and saw the world as very limited. There was no magic in this world. There were no super powers. There were no Yoshis or leaves that could give a racoon tail that would let you fly. Imagine, if you can, at the age of seven, looking around at the world, lacking a comprehension of how the rest of the world comprehended the world, but still saying to yourself: There is no God.


You didn't feel some ethereal sense of God's love, and you connected this with fantasy elements of the world that you knew from fiction. And while you didn't say this, I suspect that you also may have seen and recognized the falsehood of many superstitions. And in this, you concluded that there is no God, and that is where your depression began. You are not unique in this story; it's actually pretty common.

Romans 1:18-23:
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.


You speak of learning chemistry and physics and discovering the limits placed on the world. You know that when two people shake hands, it is literally nothing touching nothing as the electrostatic fields bounding their atoms repulse each other. You know that the Earth revolves around the sun in just such a way that its momentum and the sun's gravity counterbalance each other to create a perpetual slightly oblong orbit. You know that every day, hundreds of millions of people rocket around the world in metal boxes powered by explosions that we call "cars," and the vast majority get to their destinations none the worse for wear.

And in all of this, in all the wonder of the "limits" of the world, you see no God. And you're not alone in this, as I've quoted a letter to a church from nearly two millennia ago describing the same thing. Amadis, you don't see God because you don't want to see God.

A world without God would truly be a depressing place. And a world with God but without a Savior would be even worse. But fortunately we don't live in such a world. Amadis, I encourage you to seek out a Christian church in your area. One where the pastor and congregation actually believe that Jesus died and was bodily resurrected from the dead, and can tell you why that matters. I am not claiming this as some sort of instant cure for your depression. But I am claiming that you can come to know the love of God.
10/27/2018 10:46 AMPosted by Darethy
Also one other thing too while i'm still awake enough for this tangent(I haven't slept all night.) in war, and especially in the nightmare hellscape that is war in World of Warcraft, it's also not going to be adding that much to their suffering. After all if they are an enemy troop we just got done stabbing them, definitely without their consent, and probably killing them in a painful manner.

Raising them to ask a question doesn't really compare to what is after all a killing. Especially if we factor in the more !@#$ed up ways to die to enemy troops in WoW which includes burning to death, freezing, being raised as ACTUAL mindless undead, thrown through a void portal to have your soul devoured by nameless horrors from the outer spheres, and hell that last one is something that thusfar only the Alliance has displayed the capability to do.

It's unsavory, but by no means the worst thing in the world.

I disagree, because of the less often quoted part of Edge of Night:

    Sylvanas Windrunner drifts in a sea of comfort, physical sensations replaced by the purity of emotion. She can grasp bliss, see joy, hear peace. This is the afterlife, her destiny. The eternal sea in which she found herself after she fell defending Silvermoon. She belongs here. With each recollection, her memory of this place palls. The sound grows distant; the warmth, cooler. The vision takes on the pallor of a half-remembered dream. But with horrific clarity, the memory always ends the same: Sylvanas's spirit is wrenched away. The pain is so intense it leaves her soul forever torn. The grinning face of Arthas Menethil, with his lopsided smile and dead eyes, leers at her as he pulls her back into the world.


To be torn away from your deserved afterlife is worse than being killed. And the Forsaken, Sylvanas, knows this.
10/27/2018 10:51 AMPosted by Necroxis
Since its inception, the Forsaken story has been Sylvanas' story. Now as Warchief of the Horde, more and more of the Horde story as a whole is becoming just Sylvanas' story. Its getting so bad that large chunks of the Alliance's story is now just in reaction to Sylvanas.

I agree with everything you said in your post.
10/27/2018 11:04 AMPosted by Amadis
10/27/2018 10:46 AMPosted by Darethy
Also one other thing too while i'm still awake enough for this tangent(I haven't slept all night.) in war, and especially in the nightmare hellscape that is war in World of Warcraft, it's also not going to be adding that much to their suffering. After all if they are an enemy troop we just got done stabbing them, definitely without their consent, and probably killing them in a painful manner.

Raising them to ask a question doesn't really compare to what is after all a killing. Especially if we factor in the more !@#$ed up ways to die to enemy troops in WoW which includes burning to death, freezing, being raised as ACTUAL mindless undead, thrown through a void portal to have your soul devoured by nameless horrors from the outer spheres, and hell that last one is something that thusfar only the Alliance has displayed the capability to do.

It's unsavory, but by no means the worst thing in the world.

I disagree, because of the less often quoted part of Edge of Night:

    Sylvanas Windrunner drifts in a sea of comfort, physical sensations replaced by the purity of emotion. She can grasp bliss, see joy, hear peace. This is the afterlife, her destiny. The eternal sea in which she found herself after she fell defending Silvermoon. She belongs here. With each recollection, her memory of this place palls. The sound grows distant; the warmth, cooler. The vision takes on the pallor of a half-remembered dream. But with horrific clarity, the memory always ends the same: Sylvanas's spirit is wrenched away. The pain is so intense it leaves her soul forever torn. The grinning face of Arthas Menethil, with his lopsided smile and dead eyes, leers at her as he pulls her back into the world.


To be torn away from your deserved afterlife is worse than being killed. And the Forsaken, Sylvanas, knows this.


The thing is, i'm not even sure the Forsaken have that pain, and if they do, i'm not sure they remember it. When the Forsaken speak of the afterlife, it's in terms of darkness, it's black, foggy, they don't register things quite on the other side. I mean if they did why don't we talk to the Forsaken about a lot more concerning life after death? kind of an important question you'd figure more people would ask about.

What the Forsaken know about the hereafter mostly seems to come through either enraged spirits, or ghosts contacted by things like shadow priests. If the Forsaken have any experience of this intense unforgivable agony and hold malice for it, they have never displayed such.

You need to keep in mind that Sylvanas was a banshee which is a rather distinct type of ghost bound to this world and Arthas brought her back pretty much just to torment her. The most we get out of this from other people is raising shock, which seems to be less pain and more just general incoherence.
10/27/2018 10:55 AMPosted by Gharion
-The forsaken are intrinsically tied to Sylvanas. As an example: If she decided that pink is now their national color and dressing up as anduin was mandatory under penalty of death, they would be all over that

I agree. This is a problem.

10/27/2018 10:55 AMPosted by Gharion
-Sylvanas becomes more like Arthas by the patch, Valtrois even compared the forsaken to flippin legion. And before that she literally had an Arthas flashback while pulling her own fall of quel'thalas on the nelves where Delaryn was the new sylvanas

I agree, this is what makes me hate her most.

10/27/2018 10:55 AMPosted by Gharion
-The scourge deserved to be eradicated, we had an entire expac of doing that and the only reason they werent eradicated is probally bc someone at the dev team really liked pirates of the caribbean 3

While perhaps true, we weren't even allowed to eradicate the actual Scourge, what with always needing a Lich King and all.

10/27/2018 10:55 AMPosted by Gharion
-the forsaken cannot be eradicated bc they are a playable race. We have killed a lot of things over the years that were less evil but they basically get a free pass to do whatever and only now are they being started to be called out ingame(mildly, at that)

The free pass of the NPCs in the name of the players has been aggravating, I agree.

10/27/2018 10:55 AMPosted by Gharion
I agree with some posters here, the forsaken dont need redemptions or cures: they need to tone down the scourge- i dont even care if it takes Calia replacing Sylvie or something stupid like that

I agree that the Forsaken don't need redemption if they at least stop being like the Scourge they hated.
10/27/2018 11:01 AMPosted by Darethy
If only she could see what we see, and realize that the almighty Blizzard gods will never have the Alliance wage a war of extinction while simultaneously creating dozens of nonsensical border skirmishes over nothing that ensures enough corpses for her people to last perpetually.

Then she'd know all she'd need to do is just sit on her butt in Undercity. :P

Hahaha! That is and would be very true, yes.
10/27/2018 11:03 AMPosted by Balloonfish
I am not claiming this as some sort of instant cure for your depression.

Oh, believe me, I am extremely jealous of anyone who can believe in an afterlife. As an atheist, death is the most terrifying thing to me. Not just an end to existence. But upon dying, never having existed at all.

The only thing I have to look forward to is being wrong. But the irony is I won't be finding out in this life time. And if I'm not wrong, I won't be finding that out, either.

But my mother is devout Catholic. I have plenty of outlets for religion if I ever need.
10/27/2018 11:04 AMPosted by Amadis
I disagree, because of the less often quoted part of Edge of Night:

    Sylvanas Windrunner drifts in a sea of comfort, physical sensations replaced by the purity of emotion. She can grasp bliss, see joy, hear peace. This is the afterlife, her destiny. The eternal sea in which she found herself after she fell defending Silvermoon. She belongs here. With each recollection, her memory of this place palls. The sound grows distant; the warmth, cooler. The vision takes on the pallor of a half-remembered dream. But with horrific clarity, the memory always ends the same: Sylvanas's spirit is wrenched away. The pain is so intense it leaves her soul forever torn. The grinning face of Arthas Menethil, with his lopsided smile and dead eyes, leers at her as he pulls her back into the world.


To be torn away from your deserved afterlife is worse than being killed. And the Forsaken, Sylvanas, knows this.


Its part of the reason I am convinced that the afterlife she was shown, the horrific nightmare she experienced ... is a lie. She's not being magically influenced, nor controlled, she was simply given a false motivation that would push her in a direction that is convenient for the goals of another (and this would be super ironic, because she's a master of doing this to other people herself). So, self-plug repost time:

Sylvanas is being manipulated by Yogg-Saron.

She's been acting upon a lie, an afterlife that was never meant to be. She crucified herself on Old God blood, and our good ol' "Hope's End" Yogg took the opportunity to give her a little kick in the keester; and now "Hope is a disease, I must cut it out". Sylvie's Val'kyr are playing her for a fool. Northrend is riddled with Kvaldir, man I wonder who Arthas could have snagged his "Kyr" from? Obviously not the lovely, vindictive original Val'kyr Titan Watcher who has links to Yogg through Loken and looks like she's dabbled one too many times into the "Curse of Flesh"? That's absurd, its not like Yogg loves corrupting titan constructs or anything...
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10/27/2018 11:11 AMPosted by Darethy
The thing is, i'm not even sure the Forsaken have that pain, and if they do, i'm not sure they remember it. When the Forsaken speak of the afterlife, it's in terms of darkness, it's black, foggy, they don't register things quite on the other side. I mean if they did why don't we talk to the Forsaken about a lot more concerning life after death? kind of an important question you'd figure more people would ask about.

What the Forsaken know about the hereafter mostly seems to come through either enraged spirits, or ghosts contacted by things like shadow priests. If the Forsaken have any experience of this intense unforgivable agony and hold malice for it, they have never displayed such.

You need to keep in mind that Sylvanas was a banshee which is a rather distinct type of ghost bound to this world and Arthas brought her back pretty much just to torment her. The most we get out of this from other people is raising shock, which seems to be less pain and more just general incoherence.

I would find that even worse. That would mean that the dead aren't only pulled away from the afterlives they earned, even their memories of it would be taken away. That sounds even more unforgivable.
10/27/2018 11:18 AMPosted by Droité
Its part of the reason I am convinced that the afterlife she was shown, the horrific nightmare she experienced ... is a lie. She's not being magically influenced, nor controlled, she was given a false motivation that would push her in a direction that is convenient for the goals of another individual (and this would be super ironic, because she's a master of doing this to other people herself).

Don't get me wrong, I would be very happy if Sylvanas is sacrificed to N'zoth taking advantage of Yogg-Saron's mechanations the way he did with the Emerald Nightmare, and that to be the end of Sylvanas' story and we are done with her. I definitely hate her that much.
10/27/2018 11:21 AMPosted by Amadis
10/27/2018 11:11 AMPosted by Darethy
The thing is, i'm not even sure the Forsaken have that pain, and if they do, i'm not sure they remember it. When the Forsaken speak of the afterlife, it's in terms of darkness, it's black, foggy, they don't register things quite on the other side. I mean if they did why don't we talk to the Forsaken about a lot more concerning life after death? kind of an important question you'd figure more people would ask about.

What the Forsaken know about the hereafter mostly seems to come through either enraged spirits, or ghosts contacted by things like shadow priests. If the Forsaken have any experience of this intense unforgivable agony and hold malice for it, they have never displayed such.

You need to keep in mind that Sylvanas was a banshee which is a rather distinct type of ghost bound to this world and Arthas brought her back pretty much just to torment her. The most we get out of this from other people is raising shock, which seems to be less pain and more just general incoherence.

I would find that even worse. That would mean that the dead aren't only pulled away from the afterlives they earned, even their memories of it would be taken away. That sounds even more unforgivable.


By contrast this doesn't bother me that much, because the way my internal logic goes is this: If they were good people they would probably figure they would have a blissful afterlife by the tenets of the Church of the Holy Light. Hence, they would immediately ask to be put in the ground, and promptly go wherever they are gonna go UNLESS they for some reason wanted to stick around in spite of the prospect of eternal bliss.

Alternatively, the only other reason would be that this person believes they are for some reason going to hell. Now it's POSSIBLE that someone would believe they are going to hell and not actually be going to hell, but that's an awfully specific circumstance, i'm curious what someone could even do that makes them believe this while simultaneously be slated for paradise.
10/27/2018 11:25 AMPosted by Darethy
By contrast this doesn't bother me that much, because the way my internal logic goes is this: If they were good people they would probably figure they would have a blissful afterlife by the tenets of the Church of the Holy Light. Hence, they would immediately ask to be put in the ground, and promptly go wherever they are gonna go UNLESS they for some reason wanted to stick around in spite of the prospect of eternal bliss.

Alternatively, the only other reason would be that this person believes they are for some reason going to hell. Now it's POSSIBLE that someone would believe they are going to hell and not actually be going to hell, but that's an awfully specific circumstance, i'm curious what someone could even do that makes them believe this while simultaneously be slated for paradise.

See, Derek Proodmore's confusion, Amalia Stone's confusion, and the Undead's confusion in general upon being raised makes me entirely disagree with this. Upon being raised, they might not have any idea what's going on, even less so be able to process if they believe they would go to a good afterlife if the ask to be buried unalive again. If that even would kill an Undead.
10/27/2018 11:28 AMPosted by Amadis

See, Derek Proodmore's confusion, Amalia Stone's confusion, and the Undead's confusion in general upon being raised makes me entirely disagree with this. Upon being raised, they might not have any idea what's going on, even less so be able to process if they believe they would go to a good afterlife if the ask to be buried unalive again. If that even would kill an Undead.


The problem is not all undead experience raising shock that intense, and even those who do have caretakers go out of their way to return them to their senses. Alchemy, sentimental items, reflections, sitting down for an extended talk. If this confusion had any sense of permanence i'd agree, but not only doesn't it, but they go out of their way to snap the person out of it.

Edit: Also they kill you before reburying you, which kind of feeds back into my lack of issue because they seem to try and cover all their bases on this.
10/27/2018 11:31 AMPosted by Darethy
The problem is not all undead experience raising shock that intense, and even those who do have caretakers go out of their way to return them to their senses. Alchemy, sentimental items, reflections, sitting down for an extended talk. If this confusion had any sense of permanence i'd agree, but not only doesn't it, but they go out of their way to snap the person out of it.

Some people certainly do go back to their graves, as we see at the Deathknell.

But I still hold that having that decision forced upon you is utterly unfair, especially if your memories of your afterlife removed, which would make it so you don't even have all the facts you deserve to have to make an informed decision with.
10/27/2018 11:36 AMPosted by Amadis
10/27/2018 11:31 AMPosted by Darethy
The problem is not all undead experience raising shock that intense, and even those who do have caretakers go out of their way to return them to their senses. Alchemy, sentimental items, reflections, sitting down for an extended talk. If this confusion had any sense of permanence i'd agree, but not only doesn't it, but they go out of their way to snap the person out of it.

Some people certainly do go back to their graves, as we see at the Deathknell.

But I still hold that having that decision forced upon you is utterly unfair, especially if your memories of your afterlife removed, which would make it so you don't even have all the facts you deserve to have to make an informed decision with.


Which normally i'd agree, but this isn't a one time deal so to speak. Once you become Forsaken, they don't magically get rid of your capability to self terminate as terrible as it sounds to say. You have...forever, to do whatever with your unlife. If you're unsure, why don't you grab a fishing pole and head over to brightwater, mull over what you want for yourself for awhile?

I suppose ultimately it comes down to a question of self confidence, but you have all your unlife to change your mind. And if it takes you a few years, is a little more time in the realm of mortals that bad?
10/27/2018 11:39 AMPosted by Darethy
Which normally i'd agree, but this isn't a one time deal so to speak. Once you become Forsaken, they don't magically get rid of your capability to self terminate as terrible as it sounds to say. You have...forever, to do whatever with your unlife. If you're unsure, why don't you grab a fishing pole and head over to brightwater, mull over what you want for yourself for awhile?

I suppose ultimately it comes down to a question of self confidence, but you have all your unlife to change your mind. And if it takes you a few years, is a little more time in the realm of mortals that bad?

Well that depends on how terrible your undead body is, but that could possibly sway even the most loyal of Sylvanas' follows to decide to go back into the ground.

Baring that factor, Sylvanas is actually the example of the danger to that. If undeath warps your mind, you now have the rest of eternity to end up doing things that will deserve you a worse afterlife.

That's not fair. If you earned your afterlife, and a twisted version of you can unearn that for your soul, who you were in life has had everything they worked for taken away without getting to play any factor in it at all.
10/27/2018 11:36 AMPosted by Amadis

Some people certainly do go back to their graves, as we see at the Deathknell.

I'm not sure what to make of Forsaken consent anymore.

In Deathknell, everyone gets a nice little questionnaire, detailing their options, and their wishes are honored.

Then in Silverpine, Sylvanas raises a whole pit of corpses right there for Garrosh, and they all just hop right up and salute her, even though no one asked what they wanted.

Then Andorhal happened, and it caused so many questions, the devs had to wade in and clarify that Undead who were raised shortly after a violent death were sometimes subject to a blind rage. The Forsaken were essentially banking on this rage, pointing them at their former comrades, but explaining the fine print later, after they calmed down.

And now, in Darkshore, the Val'kyr have the ability to just be able to tell which souls are willing to be brought back. Suddenly. Somehow.

I'd honestly accept mind control as a better answer, now. At least it's easy enough the devs might be able to keep their story straight on it.
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10/27/2018 11:51 AMPosted by Galenorn
I'm not sure what to make of Forsaken consent anymore.

Honestly, I chalk that up to the same lack of efforts Blizzard puts into detailing any of the races in game and hefting that sort of description into outside material, leaving us with an incomplete picture in game that they just expect us to accept, but of course we don't, and so causes the confusion and outbursts here on the Story Forums.