Here’s the thing about the Orcs… at the end of WC3 they decided they were redeemed. Defended Hyjal, helped save the planet, they’ve got nothing left to prove. Now, as players, sure, that felt justifiable because we’d experienced what they went through in the process and to us, yes, they showed they were better than before.
Thing is, the Manari are only now at that point in their story. They’re walking that path of redemption. Nor have they suddenly decided, “You know what? We’re redeemed. We don’t have to try anymore.”
Meanwhile the Orcs turned around and commit genocide, again. No fel, no trickery, etc… Completely sober, the Orcs and the Horde committed genocide. Again. AFTER claiming to have found redemption.
Say what you will, but at least thus far the Manari don’t carry the grave sin of literally casting aside their redemption to indulge in genocide again. They may in the future. That remains to be seen. As of this moment though? It’s one sin the Orcs have that the Manari do not.
Which only goes to show the Manari weren’t uniformly commanders, but were also used as troops.
Okay, the intent behind the story I think matters a lot here besides the botched execution. Young Orcs who didn’t understand the failures of their elders emulated what they should’ve understood as tragedy. Garrosh saw power in Saurfang’s past, Saurfang saw slaughter. That in itself has a lot to do with the glorification of people like Grom as heroes neglecting their failures and their own corruption.
Compare this to the Eredar who for all we’d been presented, just reveled in what they were and chose this destructive path for power, and did so constantly, over and over, scourging countless worlds of life for an egomaniacs crusade to burn down the universe.
Doing it at all is unspeakably evil yes. But it is insane to think doing it over and over is meaningless as if only the first one matters lmao.
I disagree. What we see in effect is the capacity for genocide, regardless of how frequently it is conducted. Even after the Orcs professed to be redeemed, to have been deceived and under the influence of demons, they went around and did it AGAIN.
The Manari questline makes it clear any Manari that weren’t on board with the Legion would’ve been tortured/killed (lucky to be killed, we saw what Varimathras was going to go through for the rest of eternity). Playable Manari are shown to be repentant, that they had no choice but to suffer/die (again, if lucky), or to do what they were told.
So, again, if the Orcs can just say sorry and move on, I don’t see why the Manari cannot as well. The only thing separating the two is that the Manari had a greater period of time to commit more atrocities. If the Orcs had a few epochs for universe-ending crusades, I imagine their numbers would probably be higher.
No pre-existing Eredar lore ever supported that notion while we had been dealing with the identity crisis of the Orcs for an IRL 11 years before MoP had even come out with that part of the Garrosh story then followed up with WoD. The Eredar fundamentally changed into DEMONS and the only thing that even vaguely set up that they might be okay is a single archaeology junk item from legion where you somehow do demon archaeology on Azeroth in places they’d been in for like a month because blizz was tired of the profession.
The orcs don’t just say sorry and move on. They absolutely do not. It is a giant arc that has been at the core of most of their lore. Nevermind the fact that many Orcs aren’t super driven by morality to begin with compared to the Draenei whose culture’s central pillar is the Holy Light and the virtues of the Naaru.
I want more of a Blade Runner 2049 deal, where they’re kept on a very short leash (and treated quite poorly ) by the Hand of Argus as they’re used to hunt down or otherwise police rogue demons.
Maybe I just want an in game reference to the Blade Runner 2049 Baseline Test scene.
My favorite thing blizzard ever said to try to reconcile shadowlands lore was that the nerubians copied their architecture from the Maldraxxi because they were masters of death.
It’s hilarious how even TWW devs know that’s nonsense and stuck with Nerubians not having necromancy like at all and being shadow based. Like… who was so out of touch with the lore they interpreted Anub’arak as some kind of willing undead or his people as master necromancers, they’re usually undead when we fight them BECAUSE THEY WERE KILLED AND CONQUERED.
The man’ari eredar are different because weren’t demons originally. They were originally, presumably, good and normal people who were corrupted and turned to evil. They are specifically not free-minded. Like that’s a major part of draenei history and why they fled Argus in the first place. Sargeras promised them power in a classic Faustian bargain but Velen had visions that told him it was a bum deal. His followers escaped while all the other eredar became demons. The man’ari eredar are inherently warped and twisted.
Is there any way to know which Man’ari were eating babies and which weren’t? At all? Other than them saying “nah I didn’t do that” and maybe barring any Man’ari who were in the upper brass I don’t think there is.
The man’ari are leaps and bounds worse than the example you’ve listed.
Imagine Kiljeaden going home at the end of a long work day. He sets a kettle on the stove. He runs a bubble bath. Then he settles down and mentally scans each and every man’ari eredar in existance for impurity of thought.
No rest for the wicked, indeed. No wonder he looked so tired in his final cut scene.
I’d say the answer to this mostly comes down to affiliation.
Generally speaking, demon hunters and death knights aren’t allowed in Alliance territories. ILLIDARI demon hunters and EBON BLADE death knights are, though; that distinction matters.
Affiliation makes the difference—who owns accountability if there is a screw-up counts; at least on a governmental level.
I’d say that the same goes for Man’ari, generally speaking. In other words, an individual character’s story influences the question of tolerance significantly.
My Man’ari is both a member of the Penitents and an ally of the Illidari. Even with these affiliations, I was initially hesitant to have him about Stormwind, however, time is a factor, too. The Penitents addition to the story isn’t fresh news anymore—the edge of seeing them about would probably be dulled, in other words—most agents of a state—your guards, for example—would logically shift from a ‘kill on sight’ mentality to an ‘ask questions first’ or ‘keep cautious’ philosophy because political nuance exists with the Man’ari now.
To be clear, I speaking to State tolerance. How an individual character feels when they see a Man’ari is a different story.
Regarding all Penitents being on Argus, the majority are—we know that from the Draenei heritage quest line—but not all. It’s plausible to have agents of the Penitents—your character—on Azeroth; all you need to do is involve Arzaal giving your character the justification. Being on the planet can be squared, in other words. Reason and affiliation are high factors here.
The franchise’s story is vastly more nuanced than what it used to be. Black and white stances are harder and harder to hold.
Not sure if I would call thirteen man’ari who are under super secret double Light probation in the Exodar or Argus and will likely remain so for longer than any of the factions is around for counts as the Alliance tolerating them.
The Draenei are also their own sovereign entity, Stormwind has no say in what they allow, just suggestions. At the same time, however, we do not see man’ari in Stormwind, at all, nor any other racial city. They’re being given far, FAR less leeway than the Ebon Blade or the Illidari were given.
Their fate is essentially to fight and work until they die, or eventually absolve themselves. This will take thousands of years, by the time one of the Penitent manages to become trusted, the Alliance probably won’t even exist anymore.