The Stormwind trainers though had to hide in the cellar of a dingy tavern. One of them gave tailoring training in felcloth.
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If I recall, the first major time warlocks openly served the alliance at least, was when Varian allowed them to serve in the army during the pandaria campaign
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Eh, we have warlocks openly serving the Alliance during the Argent Tournaments.
But that was more of a We’re going to turn a blind eye to your existence sort of thing. Varian actually let them join the military in a official capacity
I remember people talking a lot about it when it happened.
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Belief in redemption is not this singular ‘you either do or don’t’ tho lmao there are limits and there are ways to do it and set it up. If they wanted this they should’ve set it up in Legion itself. Instead they just come off like “whoa now that we cant win, what if i said i was just forced to do it all???” lmao.
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What I’ve found about forum posters is they don’t care about the lore, they just like to complain. That or they’re illiterate and don’t understand what is going on and miss key context, and when pointed out, get defensive about it.
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Welcome to real life redemption. A lot of people only change when there is no other option. It’s called hitting rock bottom and sometimes, you need to let them for them to seek the light.
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I find that most people just genuinely do not pay attention to the lore. It’s common though.
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Inevitably every single person will appear as if they don’t understand the lore to someone else because the lore is that wildly inconsistent, incoherent or hard to access.
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Also demons seemed totally free minded. There are tons of rogue demons or summoned demons serving others.
If random imps and succubuses go rogue why was an eredar unable to join Velen before?
Death knights were bound to the scourge but every demon just did what it wanted.
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A significant amount (in a local scheme, not the grand sceme) served Illidan instead ofthe Legion. It’s rare to completely break away sure, but it did exist as an option. Demons have often been shown, the exception of a archaeology item from an xpac that did barely anything with archaeology, to just naturally be chaotic, with the only exception being ‘it doesn’t some easily to some’ but that on it’s own is not set up to just suddenly make a group of penitent Eredar.
The idea itself is not completely terrible, it’s just something that I think would need time to not feel sudden.
I’d rather see some eredar loaded up with magical explosives that will kill them if they step out of line, in a Suicide Squad sort of scenario.
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No. The orcs was tricked and worked as the ground troops, they were at the bottom of the legions chain of command. The man’ari acted as the ones that consciously carry it out and leading legion forces. They had much more power and responsibility.
Even if the result of genocide is the same kind of evil, the actor is not on the same level of evil. Simply because of the difference in their awareness, power, the amount of time they did it for and the amount of times they had to decide to do evil again.
I decided to make that example to showcase how much carnage the man’ari decisions brought. And that said, time spent following evil ideas and how much pain you inflicted to them is a parameter we humans value, in general we dislike a serial killer more than a person that simply killed a single human being.
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Not sure what you mean by “limits”. The example you give smacks more of doubting whether the person is repentant (a requirement for redemption). I felt that the story clearly was telling me that the people involved were repentant. That they wished to try and atone for its own sake.
I feel like trying to Suicide Squad with Demons runs into the roadblock of their souls go back to a place of pure chaos where time doesn’t even seem to flow at a normal rate iirc where they’ll just wait for a revive.
Because to a certain extent being a demon has been treated for a while as having a pretty harsh effect on you that’s pretty destructive, and redemption for beings whose crimes are on that scale and for whom we’ve been lead to think destruction is more of a primal thing since their souls fundamentally arent even the same as our anymore is a weird thing to essentially just drop with no build up nor existing attempt to set it up in any meaningful way. If the wotlk DK starting was just “you make a DK, now you’re rogue!!” with no story there, and no history with a character like Darion, it’d be pretty lame. Redemption or at least a change coming from something that’s an actual story and progression, not just one day it being added casually when these guys were some of the worst evil in the universe, is just boring and insincere, it comes off as a sloppy rushed job done to explain the skin being there and not a meditated element of worldbuilding. Especially because it is from the same period of time where Blizz wrote that the Draenei rogue trainer is a ‘space pirate’ when Draenei don’t actually have enough space ships for that to work lmao it already looks like they don’t care.
Edit: Demons being redeemed isn’t necessarily the issue, but it’s the scope of the crimes of the Eredar with zero set up that any like these dudes existed that makes it feel insincere compared to that Satyr who ripped his own heart out to save a sick kid.
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I don’t believe that scope of the crimes matters. (Though it isn’t clear how much “scope” the crimes of an individual Man’ari has.). Even if we just assume the difference is not just one of how much opportunity. (is someone who only had a chance to kill hundreds, but would have killed more if he could, more moral that someone who killed thousands?
Nor have I seen any useful concept on how much is “too much”. If you “only” kill hundreds, are you more “deserving”? It just seems that it isn’t in what the person has done, but in how outraged others are. And even that varies.
And, in any case, the idea that “too many” crimes puts you beyond redemption is the same mindset that you shouldn’t be redeemed for one crime. You have done bad things you have to pay for, regardless of who you are now.
On this, I disagree. It’s easy for men in charge, commanders, whom rarely if ever see the field of battle, to issue orders of torture and genocide. They never need to look on their victims.
Contrary, it’s those in the lower ranks who do. Let’s check the wiki for a moment and see what it has to say about the Orcs and the Draenei.
https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Orc#The_Rise_of_the_Horde
So, not so much as a drop of demon’s blood, not even a WHIFF of fel, and the Orcs were already eagerly on the path of genocide against the Draenei. You can say they were tricked, but they still actively CHOSE genocide as opposed to diplomacy.
Mind you, I am not excusing the actions of the Man’ari, but the playable Man’ari, by contrast, are described as having followed Kil’jaeden and Archimonde because the alternative was death/eternal torture. One might even go so far as to say THEY were deceived by THEIR leaders similarly to the Orcs, for all that matters.
My point remains. You cannot condemn the Man’ari and in the same breath excuse the Orcs without being a hypocrite.
So… the Orcs are worse than the Man’ari then? Despite choosing, ‘redemption,’ they and the rest of the Horde turned around and committed genocide again about… what? 30 years later?
We already burned that bridge with the Void Elves.
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And the Man’ari decided to it countless of times. So no, by amount of genocides the Man’ari are once again the worse ones.
When did I excuse the orcs? The orcs did an awful thing and should be culturally reformed and repent. Which is what they’ve tried to do.
The sins of the Man’ari do not lessen the sin of the orcs, but comparably the Man’ari sins are just that much greater.
The Man’ari are not shielded from the bloodshed though. We see them as commanders and taking to the field, acting as elite troops.
That said usually in the real world it’s the leaders of the troops that carry the heavy blame and will get punished often along with the grunts. The grunts have individual responsibility while the commanders and other superiors have responsibility of the troops actions while under their command as well.
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Since they retcon everything these days do you think we could get this retconned.
I came up with an idea.
Kil’jaedan the Deceiver pulled a ruse even on the eredar. Kil’jaedan declared that the eredar were all chief demons of Sargeras’ nihilistic Burning Crusade. His power was consolidated quickly and there was no dissent. Soon enough, the entire race crossed over into becoming immortal demons. Only an in-significant minority lacked immortal demon powers and names.
This ruse was not discovered until thousands of years later, when some man’ari joined the Alliance, a fact that surprised even Velen. Investigation from Alliance Warlocks concluded they although similar, the man’ari that had joined them had actually avoided Sargeras’ pact and were not true demons. A ruse that lasted thousands of years.
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To demand that a game preset something different because it offends your idea of why it doesn’t make sense is counter-productive.
Since game canon is supreme, you’re far better off trying to fill in the explanation of why something presented HAS to be working out.