Why Does Alliance Lose AV 90% of the Time?

There are a variety of reason, broken down into 2 categories: map and players.

The biggest issue is that the map is unbalanced. Generally, the center of the map is the key to who wins and loses, specifically the triangle of stonehearth, iceblood, and snowfall graveyards.

We’ll start with the farthest foward horde graveyard iceblood graveyard: if alliance assault IBGY, horde respawn 20 at a time 22 seconds away. Alliance will respawn 10 at a time 57 seconds away at stonehearth graveyard. Holding IBGY for the 4 minutes to “hard cap” so that it can be used for alliance to respawn at is extremely difficult in a battle of attrition with such a disparity in reinforcements. This means that it is very easy for horde to retake IBGY if alliance captures it, which generally means that if it is not being immediately threatened, they aren’t required to hold people back to defend it.

The farthest forward alliance graveyard is stonehearth graveyard. Immediately to the north of SHGY (so, behind it) is a choke point (Icewing bunker choke) that is extremely easy to defend against assault when defended from the south. There is no way around it and the choke point at its narrowest is about 2-3 times the width of the road. If alliance lose SHGY and have not captured any other graveyard south of that point, horde can easily block off IWB choke and prevent any non stealth alliance from getting south. Further, once horde has hard capped SHGY, the graveyard is immediately behind the choke whereas the alliance graveyard is about a minute away. So again, in this particular instance, horde can reinforce faster. Basically, if horde captures SHGY, any chance alliance has of winning the game is gone. They can stall the game out for a long time with the strong defensive positions of stormpike graveyard or the bridge to Dun Baldar (although generally not both) but they have no actual hope of winning at this point. The importance of not losing SHGY, and the ease with which its loss allows horde to stop all alliance from going south of IWB if it is lost, means that alliance can not lose SHGY before capturing a graveyard south of IWB choke. Which means it must be defended.

The “neutral” graveyard that starts off not controlled by either side is snowfall graveyard. Due to the relative positions of the starting caves, horde are able to get to SFGY and soft cap it long before alliance get anywhere close to it. That is only a minor benefit, but a benefit none the less. A bigger issue is that any alliance players fighting at SFGY who die respawn (for whatever reason) all the way back at the aid station in Dun Baldar, which means they have been completely taken out of the fight for 2 to 2 1/2 minutes, which is huge. Additionally, since alliance have to maintain some sort of defensive force to guard SHGY, they have a smaller force to attempt an assault of SFGY.

Alliance has several potential options at the start of a game: attempt to run the majority of their forces around incoming horde all the way down to IBGY and attempt to capture and hold it for the 4 minutes necessary for it to hard cap, run the majority of their forces to SFGY to attempt the same thing, sit at SHGY and “turtle”, or some combination of the 3, which splits forces up into smaller groups. For any of the offensively oriented strategies to be successful, alliance have to have solid coordination, but most importantly they have to win all of their fights by substantial margins since they are operating from a reinforcement disadvantage. Ultimately, horde has a single strategy that is essentially foolproof: immediately assault SHGY with everything they have and take it as quickly as they can. If a substantial portion of the alliance forces have gone on the offensive, they can take SHGY with ease, close off IWB choke and send a portion of their force to mop up any pockets of alliance south of IWB choke, who can’t be reinforced. They don’t have to “win” these fights south of the IWB choke, they just need to kill some alliance each fight to whittle them down, respawn close by and attack again, until eventually all alliance south of IWB choke are dead. If alliance instead choose the defensive option of defending SHGY, horde can simply throw their entire force at it over and over again trying to take it. Eventually they will get through and can soft cap it. They don’t need to hard cap it because as soon as it is soft capped, all alliance now respawn north of IWB choke a minute away. Horde don’t have to fear some small force running around them and capturing another graveyard because a small portion of their force can simply turn around and deal with it due to reinforcement advantages.

All of that means that the alliance team has to be substantially better than the horde team in terms of player skill, gear, class composition, and coordination to win.

All of that detailed above has had effects on the alliance players who queue for AV. Alliance pvp rankers generally aren’t going to queue because AV is only good honor if you are winning a decent amount of your matches. It is really good honor if you win. It is terrible honor if you lose. Alliance players who pvp mainly for enjoyment aren’t going to queue for a match where they do not have a realistic chance of winning. That’s simply not fun. What’s left are largely, though not entirely, people who queue for AV matches because they want the item rewards that reputation with stormpike can give. The average gear level of alliance players is generally not comparable to that of the horde players who queue for AV. In addition, there are some people who want the reputation gains but don’t want to actually sit through the frustration that is playing AV, so they find a cave somewhere and simply go AFK. The lower average gear level and the general demoralization of alliance players combine with the map disadvantages to make for an absolutely toxic situation where the alliance side essentially never wins. Alliance players who finish the rep grind with stormpike for the most part never come back to AV again.

EDIT: I’d also add that in the context of taking and holding SFGY, horde have what are called “interior lines” providing a substantial benefit. If horde has some people assaulting SHGY and some people at SFGY, they can move reinforcements back and forth between the two more quickly than alliance can, giving them local numerical superiority at the place they need it most quite quickly. The east facing ramp to to SFGY is about 4 or 5 bow shots from the south facing ramp leading up to SHGY. Alliance, assuming they want to disengage from horde and move around, have to move all the way north around Balinda’s bunker and then come south down to the ramp to SFGY. Combined with the fact that alliance assaulting SFGY respawn at DB, it makes it very difficult to take and hold SFGY.

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While much of this information could be true about the map, In my experience it comes down to lack of focus. I have only played about 30 AV games (won 2) but it seems that the HORDE are far more focused and ready than we are. Hell, most of the time i dont even get a buff out of the gate…not one except maybe that damn Ret pally throwing buffs out (thanks Pallies). I couldn’t tell you when the last time i had an intellect buff in a BG. In most games i play in, there are not nearly enough healers. We had 1 priest in a couple of the games i played in where the Horde had about 7-8. We got spanked…

I have tried my rally cry " lets move 4 groups to the next GY"…nope they all stay put right at the SHGY. When we take Iceblood, which has happened like 4 times in all my games, we actually do have a chance to win. Maybe not 50% chance, but we do have a good enough chance. No one leads…no one listens…

PS: I am not talking about premades here.

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I’ve played hundreds, across multiple characters. The primary issue is not “try harder” or “git gud”, it is the map.

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So “try harder” Is the solution? Well good to know that we lose probably around 95%+ because we dont try and not because of imbalances

Wonder why that isnt the case in the other BGs? We magically decide to try there? Or do we have much higher success rates because theyre mirror maps?

try harder…lol…come off it

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When I’m on my horde toon and do AV I just of tried harder.

Now that I’m Alliance I must secretly not try…

I freaking knew it! We sabotage intentionally!

No, work together, not try harder. Change fundamentals.

Again we randomly decide to work together more in AB and WSG? When the map is a mirror we compete just fine

When its skewed we dont

Mental gymnastics aside some of it is due to the fact that many good PVPers have opted out of AV due these imbalances and made it even worse. But even with them its a big ask to overcome the imbalance at a consistent rate

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I am just saying that trying to get 40 people to listen and coordinate together for our typical AV pug has not worked well on the Alliance side. It is a lot easier to get 10 people to listen than 40. I am not stating that there are no advantages to one side, just that we are not doing our part, as many have stated >>giving up.

How did Alliance have it so easy for the 1st month of AV, EVEN though the map is against us? Most of my friends were exalted in no time at all. This is my question? Was it because of gear? Was it because they worked together in premades? How do our premades do so well if we only have less than a 10% chance to win coming out of the gate?

But when these same Alliance are playing their horde toons the magic happens.

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Simple. Horde hadnt realized the advantage yet. Tried to flat out footrace us early on in AV. As soon as they realized their massive advantages they adjusted properly and the alliance winrate flatlined

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Hell if i know, is that what happens?

The map advantages horde has only apply if they take advantage of them. In the early days of AV, games were 5-10 minutes because it was all offense and no defense. It was all rush/race/zerg/whatever you want to call it. Horde doesn’t have an advantage in that situation - well, they do have some advantages that are counteracted by different advantages for alliance, so it’s a wash. When AV was new and many, many people were playing, so that queues were very short, even a 10 minute loss where both sides had taken objectives was worthwhile for everyone. After about a month and half or two months, as queue times increased for horde, horde learned that if they held IWB choke and blocked it, they could wipe up any alliance down south and easily win the game. One win in 30-45 minute games is certainly preferable to 3 losses in 5-10 minute games when factoring in increasing queue times. That’s when the meta shifted and horde actually started using their map advantages. Even lower and mid tier premades stopped winning reliably at this point.

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LOL must be. Many people play Horde and Alliance.

While this makes sense, what keeps Alliance from running south around the bunker to the right when there are 35 Horde trying to take SHGY? We could hold them for a bit with a 3 man group. I am usually one of the ones that runs south because that is how i played my Rogue. When i turn right, everyone but maybe 3 people goes to SHGY and dismounts.

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Yeh, i get the re-spawn thing. Sorry, just registered and had questions and comments :slight_smile:

Horde have better choke points and superior respawns for defense.

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Literally no one says horde are in all places at once.
We do say it takes is a small number of horde at ibgy to wear down a larger number of alliance there leaving the opposite imbalance at shgy resulting in a failed attempt to hard cap ibgy and a soft capped sh and alliance resing at sp with the strongest choke in the game between them and another pointless attempt at offense.

The alliance apathy is a result of the map imbalance concerning the the first offensive gys for each team. There are other factors like insta que , more PVE reward focused players but the map is a significant part of it.

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I appreciate that you have disdain for not just those posting on horde, but also those of your own faction attempting to get through to you.