Siege of Orgrimmar and the eventual end of BfA.
There must ALWAYS be- pauses as lightning strikes in the background -TWO FACTIONS!!!
Well that’s what I mean, the writers have pull a fast one out of their bullocks since they dug such a deep narrative hole for themselves. The only way out is by using the ladder of repetitiveness and stupidity.
I really dont agree with your SoO comment.
It has been debated to death though so I wont go any further.
Btw you can have two factions but no cooperation between the two.
Thats why when Azshara shows up I hope the war continues.
I take the long view.
I am not convinced that the full picture of Sylvannas has been drawn yet, nor has the full tale been told.
When you bring in Kul Tiras as part of the portrait of the Alliance, the lilly-white picture becomes a lot more grey. Drustvar in particular is a true land of horror, and one really has to question the Tidesages as a group if the vast majority of them can so readily descend to evil. And I won’t even get on the Proudmoore/Ashvane arc.
Sylvannas’ acts may seem and ARE terrible, but she has a weighty reason for every bit of evil she’s done in her life. Unlike your average Alliance hero and Thrall, she’s never been given a hero card to play, or a nice way to get things done. And I do think that she’s also been unfairly judged due to both her gender, and Blizzard’s unfortunate tendency to dress her in a manner designed to appeal to a fetish crowd.
No weighty reason can excuse Teldrassil and Lordaeron.
Mind control and dark whispers from Nzoth sure can.
No, they sure can’t.
Sure you can, just as you’ll find no shortage of Americans who can excuse Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki. Or Japanese that can excuse Pearl Harbor, or their country’s conduct in China.
I’m not exactly sure what you meant by Lordaeron… if you mean Sylvannas’ destruction of the cirty, just ask the Russians how they beat Hitler. Aside from throwing tons of sacrificial bodies at his Luftwaffte, they also made sure that the Germans got absolutely nothing from the territory they conquered by destroying EVERYTHING they were forced to leave behind, every city, town, hamlet, farm, and blade of grass. The Russians sent tons of soldiers to die at his armies hands for the sole purpose of slowing him down to give them enough time to destroy everything his army was going to conquer. They made sure that his army would have no means to supply themelves off the land while disrupting his supply lines at the same time. They literally starved the Germans to death.
I mean, idk how it isn’t the forgiveness shtick. The Alliance GAVE us land, and let us off with little more than a warning.
I just hope the it picks up LATER rather than immediately afterward Azshara. When both factions can approach it on equal levels of morality. If they want to get a compelling faction war right, that’s THE most important thing is to have both partisans have equally good reasons for fighting. The Horde just needs time to repair, get a fresh roster of main characters, get our morals and virtues reestablished, and then we can go back to fighting each other on quell footing, until then, the story is not ready to handle that level of character depth.
From a Horde citizen’s point of view, I’d go with Sylvannas. Because at this point, no matter how it got there, the Horde needs to WIN this war, by any means necessary.
Moral arguments be dammed, for whtever reasons the war started, I’d have problems believing that the Alliance would stop short of anything other than total dismantlement of the Horde and extermination of at least the Forsaken and the Orcs and very likely the Trolls as well. With the Night Elves all but eradicated, the Blood Elves might breathe a bit easier, but then again, maybe not.
And they have reason to feel this way, because this Hunter does believe that total dismantlement of the Horde is the only true victory point to shoot for.
I don’t support either of them, they’re both war criminals that deserve to hang for their roles in the destruction of Teldrassil.
Lol, the writers probably think it can ![:laughing:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/laughing.png?v=6" ":laughing:")
I like neither.
Sylvanas’ character was a subtle evil once. She didn’t wear her heart on her sleeve, lied, manipulated and cheated her way with all but a few. Everything she did, it was in a way that could be defended. Even Gilneas could be defended in a way, what with the standing grudge between Lordaeron and Gilneas before the events of World of Warcraft.
What she is now is a mockery of her original character design, as she’s become full, blatant evil. Very cool. Very cool indeed. [/s]
Sylvanas’ fault is not the fault of the character, but the writers who introduced these hamfisted changes and thought police themes in Undercity.
Likewise, I don’t like Saurfang, because his image has been forever sullied by what he’s done and said. They ruined him in one foul swoop with that cinematic.
I also don’t support him because he wants to wage a civil war in the middle of an actual war. He is a leader that’s blind to strategy, opportunity and, worse, is unable to see the long game, something a leader should be doing.
His fault doesn’t lie within his character either. This one also falls on the writing team.
I deliberately made two characters do one of each storyline, so if it’s counted as a vote in the end, my vote won’t matter.
Seriously, BFA is garbage.
Sigh. Horde leader went crazy and the Horde started a civil war. The Alliance came and helped.
Next expansion Thrall kills Garrosh. Yeah. Gee. thanks.
So yeah. The Alliance got nothing for MoP.
I dunno about that but the entire Horde needs to pay. How many times do they need to attack and blow a city before enough is enough?
Horde can never be destroyed for gameplay but we can occupy or remove some of their cities.
Arthas wasn’t excused despite it being made clear he was preparing the world to defeat the Burning Legion. He is still evil. She is still evil.
Yes you are.
Can’t we all be friends? C’mon Treng lighten up, let em have their opinions. This isn’t the thread to tell people what they believe is wrong, it’s to understand why they may think this way.
I am mainly a night elf player but I do enjoy the vast majority of Horde’s themes so I also play Horde but this time I couldn’t bring myself into doing the Horde war campaign.
I am neither team Saurfang nor team Sylvanas, both were awesome lore characters, I would have taken the beach option if it was available. I feel that the problem this time around and contrary to MOP ( in addition to being the same basic story) is that players are much more divided and in much more questionnable choice. If you support Sylvanas, you have to be an evil monster, you can’t be a sort of amoral pragmatic mercenary. But if you support Saurfang, you must be a “traitor” ( see Baine). I think both could have been more nuanced if Sylvanas and her orders were less evil and if Saurfrang was working inside the Horde while still fighting the Alliance
Feel like I need to give a little background here.
I love the Horde.
I hate Sylvanas.
I have always hated Sylvanas. Ever since Warcraft 3, I’ve despised her. I’ve always thought she was overrated as a character, and in game I knew better than to ever trust her. The only time Sylvanas might have your best interests in mind are when they overlap with her own, and the moment they diverge you are most definitely no longer required. I hated when she became Warchief because I knew exactly what they were doing with her. I knew they were setting her up to be the next Garrosh, a disposable Warchief to give the Alliance someone to ‘defeat’ in place of the Horde at large. Because the factions can never truly defeat one another but MoP already established that they can ‘defeat’ a rogue Warchief and pat each other on the back about what a good job they had done.
Much as I hated Sylvanas myself, I didn’t necessarily want her to be strung up as a loot pinata for everyones enjoyment. The less she had to do with the story the better.
Which is why no one was as happy as I was at the end of Legion when we saw Saurfang (and Baine) had an updated model. This was an obvious sign that he was going to be playing a larger role in the story and I was excited to have an Orc Warrior in the spotlight again. I even dared to hope that this might mean that Saurfang would be taking the mantle of Warchief… Bloodlessly since Sylvanas hated being in the spotlight, or with a Mak’gora so we could finally see the ritualistic combat practised without anyone cheating (since Sylvanas could just have her Valkyrie resurrect her after she lost.)
After Garrosh I understood that there were some who would be leery of this but this was Saurfang we were talking about! He lived and died for the Horde!
Surely nothing bad could come of this.
Then the pre-patch event happened, followed closely on the heels by ‘Old Soldier’. His instinct to abandon the Horde and kill himself was sickening, but there was a hopeful note at the end of Old Soldier. Maybe Saurfang might change the course the expansion had already so clearly set for the Horde. Again the crossroads. Again the villains. As if nothing had ever been learned.
Then it only deteriorated further. Every action made by those who supported Sylvanas seemed to be put in the most negative light possible. They were cruel, merciless, and cold. But instead of the push back I thought we would see from the bulk of the Horde at large, especially the three original Horde races, we got nothing.
Instead those who supported Sylvanas continued to execute her every command regardless of the consequences, and those like Saurfang increasingly turned towards the Alliance for help.
When I realized I could no longer support Saurfang was when he sat like a stubborn lump in Stormwind and refused to leave with me. We had served on the front lines in Silithus together. We had toppled Garrosh together. We had fought the Legion at the Broken Shore together. But he turned his back on all that because he refused to be in ‘her’ Horde. Even though it was ‘My’ Horde. And, frankly, ‘His’ Horde for the taking.
Instead Saurfang lost all faith in the Horde and turned to Anduin. (Likewise it seems Baine loses all faith in the Horde and turns to Jaina.)
I support Sylvanas. Even though I hate her. Even though I hate that doing so means that people think I’m a blind sheep, or an edgelord, or that I support genocide, or a slew of other nonsensical idiot ramblings that they tell themselves to make up for one simple fact they can’t seem to understand…
I love the Horde.
Blizzard wants me to lose faith in the Horde. They want me to look to the Alliance not as enemies but as potential saviors. That is what they have told me with Anduin’s story arc. With Saurfang’s story arc. With Baine’s story. Hell, probably even Nathanos’s story arc before all is said and done because they are that committed to ruining anything that was ever good about the Horde in the name, as far as I can see, of setting up another Alliance ‘victory’.
And I can’t.
I refuse to turn my back on the Horde. We are supposed to be a family. Even the warped and twisted parts. We are supposed to watch out for one another. We aren’t supposed to sneak around and make deals with our enemies behind each others backs because we don’t like what the other is doing. We aren’t supposed to kill each other because one of us is following orders and the other is following their heart.
This is stupid. The whole thing is stupid. And that’s the one thing I can agree with Sylvanas on. It’s just going to keep going unless someone puts a stop to it. If that means the destruction of the Alliance, of the Horde, or even of Azeroth itself at this point I would much rather see that story than watch the Horde tear itself apart over and over and over again… And then be in debt to the Alliance for ‘allowing’ us to do it.
I’d rather go where Sylvanas leads because at least it might be different.
Not that I have any faith in that, since instead of losing faith in the Horde I’ve lost faith in Blizzard being able to tell a story with the factions that they haven’t already done before.
My first character was a blood elf back in TBC, I didn’t known much about the lore all those years back but then I got this quest The Lady’s Necklace it took you from Tranquillien to Undercity and later to the Sepulcher in Silverpine Forest, it was an amazing quest that ended with her, Sylvanas singing Lament of the Highborne.
So you can imagine what it was like for a new player to watch that scene with such a beautiful song just to remember gets me nostalgic. The rest is story, I started to read the novels and every piece of lore from WC3.
To answer your question, I refuse to let blizz win, they can’t tell me to hate a character I been fond of all this years back. So I will support Sylvanas to the end.
I appreciate you Treng. Lok’tar.
Sylvanas. Spite.