Dungeon finder is the best thing in the game since sliced bread. I can complete dungeon quests, get gear, see content, and don’t have to post on trade chat for hours, only to be declined for a “normal”.
Oh the joys of joining a guild, only to be left out! Not so much fun for us less than extroverted folk who love to play this game.
I’ll just say that before LFD the game was growing. Since LFD they are embarassed to even publish the sub numbers.
Nothing wrong with Dungeon and Raid finder. It’s a great way to see and experience content at some level.
The only “problem” are the people lol. When you get a good group it’s actually an amazing amount of fun.
Unfortunately, good groups are few and far between.
The culture piece of the dislike for LFR/D was a long process made of many parts that led to the social breakdown of how the game culture used to be (more polite in general and with consequences for being a jerk) FR/D are only part of that, and I contend they are a small part…
Disagree. A microcosm of the effects these systems have can be seen with Mythic raids, before and after they are opened for cross-realm. The quality difference of groups and people you encounter (not skill, the quality of “fun and enjoyment”) when the groups are all on-server and then when they are cross-server is very stark.
This is essentially interaction by force of game design, which is a legitimate and important part of game design. Good design of cooperative-multiplayer games encourages or requires positive interactions between players, where the existence of other people does not hamper achieving the gameplay goals. Great design encourages recurring relationships between players, or the illusion of recurring relationship through increasing the chance of re-encountering the same players by chance.
Bad design of cooperative multiplayer games discourages interaction. The feeling that one is playing a solo-game while being surrounded by other human-controlled characters is a sign of less-than-ideal design of systems in a cooperative multiplayer game.
.
The differences and the causes are pretty much exactly the same for the differences in interaction style between queable things and non-queable things.
Just like the airlines, every person you ever talk to has some horror story. Systems cannot be judged on the existence of bad experiences, but on the frequency of bad experiences. I also claim that non-experience is as detrimental as a bad experience. I claim this by example, saying: If one joins a group and completes the task, then disbands without anyone ever saying a word, then what was the point of that group existing as a multiplayer game experience? It’s not “bad” so to speak that this happens or that anyone is “wrong” to enjoy single-player game experiences. An exmaple like this rather indicates a system that facilites complete non-interaction in an interactive cooperative multiplayer game.
.
Joining groups by queueing is 100% a QOL improvement for getting the game done, doing the thing you’re setting out to do. You will likely never see those people ever again. The probability of meeting these people again by random chance is nearly 0% (but it does happen, has happened to me).
Joining groups by asking or applying via a finder is harder that queueing. It’s harder to “get the game done.” You’re not very likely to ever see these people again. The chance of making a B-Tag friend or interacting with the group joined is low, but higher that with queued groups. The probability of meeting these people again by random chance is low, but higher than with queued groups.
Joining groups by asking in chat or joining a guild is hardest of these methods and will take the longest. Is is the least efficient way to get the game done. This produces the highest chance of interacting with other players. this comes from the need to interact to form the group in the first place, and also that this method of group joining, out of course, means that the group will be from people on the same server. The probability of meeting these people again by random chance is fairly good.
The point being made, first, is that all systems in these games come with intentional or un-intentional consequences of what they encourage / discourage and allow or disallow. I’m not actually even advocating any of those particular three methods above. I don’t like asking in chat for 60 minutes either.
The opinion is that, I prefer the systems that, even though they slow my accomplishing of the game’s goals, I don’t care, if those design choices have a consequence of making getting to those goals a better experience. When I’m playing a cooperative-multiplayer game, systems that encourage interaction, repeated engagement with players, and encourage random-chance re-engagement with players (a community !) seem to be the design choices to go for…
So, for a really quick-and-dirty example of a design choice that could add facilite a little bit more “community building,” why not add a filter option to the group finders for “show only from my own server” or something like that…
Did LFR and LFD remove people’s friends list or make it so you can’t talk?
I’m confused on what part of it made it so you could no longer interact with people.
The only difference is now you can choose to go your own way or interact with people. Choices are good.
Some people see them as having a very negative impact on guilds and server communities.
Dungeon Finder was great. I remember when they released it in Wrath people protested on the forums that it would kill the community, and I argued against them.
Raid Finder, however, is a different beast. LFR took what was supposed to be the end-game and made it so accessible that people can fall asleep on their keyboards and kill the main threats of every patch. It used to be that Blizzard would build up a threat and you wanted to step foot into that raid, and you put effort and dedication into the game to get there. You had to socialize and make connections with people. You had to improve your character and gameplay. And then you had to hit your head against the boss for a while until it fell and you cheered excitedly at your first boss kill of the raid; then repeat the process for the following bosses.
Raid Finder made it so everybody stays in their comfort zone, plays casual, and doesn’t have to care about making friends. That push that used to get players hooked on the game no longer exists. I’ve played expansions hard core and casual, and right now I feel the best way to play the game is by just not caring and taking the easy rewards, so I don’t blame the people whose first (and only) raid experience is LFR, I blame Blizzard for shooting themselves in the foot and not knowing it.
Everyone uses that argument, but remember…
-Game peaked in Wrath when LFD was introduced, and it was heralded as a great feature.
-Subs declined rapidly in early Cata, before LFR. When LFR was introduced in Dragon Soul, the sub decline slowed down greatly. You could say LFR helped cauterize that wound.
“-Game peaked in Wrath when LFD was introduced, and it was heralded as a great feature.”
Just factually pointing out:
It was introduced during Wrath, after which player numbers began declining. Whether there is actually a cause-effect I dunno.
LFD came out in 3.3 The Fall of the Lich King. The game stopped growing.
Correct. But if it was a bad thing, you’d think the subs would have fell like dominos during Wrath when it was introduced.
But if it was a bad thing, you’d think the subs would have fell like dominos during Wrath when it was introduced.
Why would that be? Number fall has been a slow decline in a general trend. The massive swings have always been at the release of expansions, not the end.
Because they removed control from players in designing their own groups and some of the prestige of ‘running’ content.
As features they are great.
As community interactions they suck. When the interaction level with PuG people is reduced to something like an NPC there isn’t any respect for the people you are playing with. Repeat that overtime and it transferrs into other aspects of the game like M+ etc.
Because it discourages interaction. Which is why half the time you feel like you have nothing to do in this game despite there being loads to do.
My friends list might as well have been removed at this point. Because no one plays like they used to. In TBC I had to delete people off my list because it was full.
It’s a fair tradeoff to me though. I’d rather deal with the occasional butthead in LFG groups, and be able to count on running dungeons whenever I want, than have to go through hell trying to find/form them manually like I did in BC.
Most of my queued LFG groups are pretty chill for the most part, in my experience.
Which is why the feature has continued to be remodeled and made better over time.
I like the ability to run content as well. But I still stand by my point that the interactions with people used to make the dungeon running ‘scene’ better and more interactive.
Same here. I generally tank so I can control the content to what I want it to be.
Honestly I thought it was fair too at the time, but history shows us it was a step in the wrong direction for the game as a whole. I’m not going to say that it has killed the game, but the philosophy behind it is what is.
I can see how it’d be that way for some. I do respect your point. But before the LFG tool I genuinely had a hard time getting into or forming groups on my low-pop server during late night hours. “Better and more interactive” don’t really mean much to me as words when you were never getting that interaction.
Mythic plus dungeons are mostly very friendly. People who say otherwise are full of BS or try to use one bad incident to advance their agenda, to the neglect of all the good and polite groups which are by far the majority. I got nothing good to say about LFR though. It doesn’t promote teamwork on account of being far too easy. And also on account of being easy promotes sloppy play (which then leads to toxic behavior when these people join content that requires actual attention and care)
What history?
I though the reason for the subscription drop in Cata was other MMOs and the general story line for the expansion. Laying sub loss at the feet of the RDF seems like it’s an assumed result instead of a proven one.