Well, no, it’s not that I don’t like it. It’s that I already refuted it. Your whataboutism on how dungeon content is soloable fails to articulate how dungeon content is designed with groups in mind, whereas leveling is designed with solo players in mind. The intention is the difference.
You can’t “refute” someone’s opinion. This is again you trying to pass of your opinion as objective fact. You think level is solo content, I disagree. You can’t refute how I view it and say it’s wrong.
You are the one who said leveling is solo-content because it can be soloable. That’s when I said I can solo dungeons therefore it is solo-content under the same premise.
Yes you can? If someone’s opinion is informed by logic that is flawed, it can absolutely be refuted. Saying something is your opinion is not going to shelter you from critique. If that upsets you, then you should question why you’re here on the forums to begin with.
I mean, you can certainly say that but any reasonable person would be able to denote the differences between soloable leveling content and soloable dungeon content. I didn’t think it needed to be specified.
You can critique it, that’s not the same as saying you refuted it.
The one who got upset here was you, we already established that.
It was your own logic that I used. Maybe come up with a stronger argument that can’t be easily used by the other opinion.
Also, let’s not ignore how someone just above agreed with me that leveling content is separate from solo-content.
My logic is that leveling content is solo content because it is designed to be soloable. My logic is sound because dungeons aren’t designed to be soloable content. You can solo them at a certain point, but that doesn’t make them solo content. Big key differences here that, again, I didn’t think I needed to specify because it’s clear the different characteristics between the two.
Your example would be more comparable if you needed to be in a group to level but could eventually reach a level in power where you didn’t need it, but never since the game’s release in 2004 has that ever been the case.
Sure. And while we’re at it, let’s also point out that Snozay, who I’ve been at extreme odds with this entire thread, agreed with me over what is considered solo content.
In any case, I already addressed their points. If your categorization of solo content is contingent on whether or not that content is also groupable, then nothing is actually solo content except the mage tower.
When we were talking talking yesterday we were specially referring to 2004 WoW. Vanilla wow 100% had group play intended. Doesn’t mean players couldn’t get around the intended play, but group quests were a part of the leveling experience and designed to be done as a group. Same goes for dungeons that were baked into the lore and only for specific level ranges.
It’s not mine, I already explained I was using your definition.
Rewards that make the content easier like the others get? I mean whole purpose of playing a game is that dopamine hit.
Question is why do you feel like solo players getting rewards affects you?
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And we already addressed that group quests were often sporadic and not in abundance. You had maybe 1-2 at most per zone, so they’re hardly representative of the overall leveling experience being intended for group play.
More importantly, group quests did not require an extensive amount of cooperation the way dungeons or raids do. Setting aside 30 seconds (if even that) to down a mob with 2 other people with little-to-no cooperation other than that we were all in a group together to get quest credit is not the same as something like a full-length dungeon or raid. That’s why I said it’s disingenuous to foot that as an example of how WoW was intended to be played with a group.
I don’t really think it is. It was definitely demanding, but I still think M+ (even at 15) is overall more of a challenge. Torghast is very forgiving, despite what people think. You can make up for the timer with completion of floors, hitting certain milestones like not getting trapped, getting good empower bonuses, killing bosses in under 20 seconds, etc.
M+ is more straightforward, but you’re also reliant on other people to a greater degree, and the clock is the ultimate measure of your success, not a score that you can pad by other means.
We already addressed how it doesn’t matter if it’s sporadic or not. It was built-in by design as you like to put it. Built into quests and build into dungeons for specific level ranges. It’s leveling content, separate from solo-content. Leveling in 2004 was a social experience.
Neither did dungeons back then, lmao. Are you seriously trying to argue that dungeons in 2004 wow required extensive cooperation?
Yeah, I can’t be the one to determine that for sure because I did Torghast as little as possible. You may be onto something though.
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Back then, when we were absolutely clueless about the game and knew absolutely nothing? Yes, it did. Just because we have Classic and can view Vanilla through a lens that depicts how dumb we were doesn’t mean at the time it wasn’t difficult.
I never played Classic. I did play Vanilla and I can tell you that it did not require “extensive cooperation”. Especially the leveling dungeons.
Try coming up with an argument on how Deadmines or Wailing Cavers required extensive cooperation.
So a tank didn’t need to tank? A healer didn’t need to heal? You could wipe the floor with those dungeons without any person fulfilling their role to some extent?
Yeah, I don’t believe that for one second. Sorry.
This is not a strong position to argue from. These roles existed long before WoW came out, and long since then as well.
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Back then when there were no tank specific stats or healer stats you absolutely had “dps” specs tanking and “dps” specs healing. This was especially the case in leveling dungeons. So, you are completely wrong there. This also doesn’t address the “extensive cooperation” at all. Playing roles does not qualify as “extensive cooperation”.
It’s not really a matter of how long they existed before then, and even then I would still argue tanking, healing, and DPS roles were obscure given that MMOs (the genre in which they were commonly associated with) were still relatively niche before WoW’s popularization of the genre, so naturally you had many people coming into WoW unfamiliar with the roles and their responsibilities in a group dynamic.
What matters is how many people doing dungeons at the time were likely not familiar with their class mechanics, leading to a breadth of issues in clearing instanced content that required people to cooperate more effectively to achieve success.
However, even when not considering any of this, doing a dungeon is a larger timesink and a larger group effort than a random group quest in the open world that takes less than a minute to complete.
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When discussing if the roles cause some jump in difficulty due to coordination, it does.
These roles were solved. Known quantities. Even if people weren’t off the heels of EQ, they would have been at least broadly familiar with the concept of those roles.
That made me literally LMAO!
Coming from you LOL!
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WoW’s popularization of MMOs brought people into the gaming hemisphere who had never even touched a game before. For many people, it was their first game. It was a cultural shift in the landscape. WoW’s 2004 cultural phenomenon was Fortnite’s 2018 cultural mainstream explosion.
There’s no precedent that would possibly suggest that people coming into WoW had some semblance of prior knowledge in that space. People coming from EQ and other established MMOs? Absolutely, but WoW became so much more than EQ or any other MMO at the time could have ever hoped to achieve. You don’t gain that sort of popularity without bringing in new players.
I think a good example of this is Elden Ring. Sure, Souls-like games were well-established and solved before Elden Ring ever released. Yet despite that, Elden Ring went on to be the bestselling FromSoft title ever with people who had never dared to touch a Souls game in the past now checking it out. And rest assured, in the face of the Souls genre being figured out, it still didn’t stop people from struggling immensely with the game.
And this isn’t even considering people who played games at the time still not being familiar with it. Prior to joining WoW in 2006, I was well-versed in the gaming landscape. I didn’t play MMOs, but I did play RPGs and other games.
WoW was the first time I had ever been introduced to the concept of tanking, healing and DPS. It’s not as established as you might think.
Why don’t you create a thesis and dissertation on mmos and how wow revolutionized the genera?
I’m sure we’d all love to read it.