No you don’t.
The fact you can’t comprehend what actual pay to win games are is why you are wrong.
Not to mention they are all super easy too.
You’re just wrong dude.
Accept it.
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No I’m not.
I don’t accept lies my guy.
When you learn what a true pay to win game is you might have a clue.
Ok.
Just be you I guess.
Shhh, just let this guy dig his own hole. He is blatantly insulting and angering so many people that half the forum has probably reported him by now.
Let him keep going and have some of my popcorn with me.
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Sounds like a plan.
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Did you refuse to use open world gear while doing so? Nothing from quest rewards, nothing from ZM caches, nothing from killing rares or cipher gear?
That’s the point I’m making. Open world gear is the backbone of EVERYTHING we do. Without it you’d be going into your first dungeon naked (and frankly I consider non-Mythic Plus dungeons open world content too). Try gearing up in that scenario. It won’t happen.
We need to be able to gear quickly to at least normal (or beginning of normal) raid level. There is also no reason that if you don’t put in effort that you shouldn’t be able to upgrade that even further. Don’t get me wrong I don’t think you should be able to do the bejeweled puzzle and get a 272 piece. But if you spend a solid amount of time during the week then at the end of it you should be able to upgrade a piece of 252 to 259. Maybe a couple if you’ve done a lot of work.
It doesn’t “break” the game because you can’t suddenly jump from 252-272 in a week. And the unique transmogs and more interesting items (stat-wise) can still be kept in raid.
I think you’re missing the point too, people want both an easier life in the open world content AND the gear alts/main swap/catchup. We don’t really have any sort of statistics that can give that break down. So it’s impossible to know just how many of either exist.
As for set bonuses. Run speed is a joke when you have flight or even mounts. It provides pretty much no noticeable benefit for a lot of toons when doing outside content. Maybe if it carried over to dungeons where you can’t benefit from mounts it’d be interesting. And out of combat regen is pretty much a joke too. There are already foods that provide that and every class has some sort of self heal.
I will give you bonus rep (or XP) as valid ones since they are useful. But frankly the most useful set bonus if always going to be one that lets you kill mobs quicker. And when there is a noticeable benefit from it (the current tier benefit is huge) then it should carry over to raids. If there is too big a difference between people of the same ilevel the lower DPS will get kicked from pug raids.
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I used whatever heirloom pieces I had till I hit 60 (they wernt leveled beyond 5/6) then grabbed a set of anima gear then farmed mythic +, it wasnt hard, didnt step once into a wq or n/h dungeon and beyond taking quest rewards for tmog didnt look at what I was taking.
Theres already more then enough completely braindead ways of getting geared for raiding. you only need 240 right now to jump into normal. yet again tho, this argument isnt about making it easier to gear for instanced content - because thats already so easy it hurts, its about people that dont do that content, being able to have something that makes them feel accomplished and have a unique tmog set or tier set for the way they like to engage with the game.
Anima gear would count as open world gear. Anyway the point is you started out with open world gear you didn’t step into a M+ naked.
Out of curiosity did you pug your M+ or do you have a team (friends/guildies)?
So, if the xmog wasn’t attached to the open world gear you wouldn’t care? So if the open world gear scaled all the way up to 272 but didn’t look like heroic/mythic tier you’d be ok with it?
Mostly pugged, did mythic 0 world tour then worked my way up. I almost exclusively pug my content this tier. I have a couple mates I can sometimes get a spot with but I dont call on them till my toons are geared and capable of pushing higher content and even then 2/3 members of a group will be pugged anyway.
No, I dont think you should get mythic raid capable gear in world content. Enough to get your feet into normal, sure, but mythic level? no.
Mythic i level gear specifically for open world content, that is exclusive to world content with bonus’s designed around rep and making world content easier and more fun, sure? Why not? But I dont think you should get high level raid gear or raiding/dungeon tier from picking herbs or solving a game of bejewelled. Like I dont think you (to take this current tier for example) should be able to get a 4/5 set raid tier at 272 level from never setting foot into a raid environment. I get the crucible was a bad luck protection for those who just never had tier tokens drop, regardless of what level of content they jump into. But there needs to be a balance of effort vs reward. Like if you could get geared for mythic raiding by doing world quests/objectives, then what would be the point of even stepping foot into a normal or heroic raid? And all it would do is make alot of unskilled players rage because they think item level is what is gatekeeping them from being able to do content.
When it isnt.
I’m all for open world gear being higher item level. The easier it is to get the gear to do the content I want to do is a win in my book.
I feel like the argument open world players don’t deserve higher quality gear is washed up these days. I’d argue more people would be happy to have free gear.
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Some interesting replies there.
Why should you do normal and heroic in order to progress to mythic raiding? If you have the skill and ilevel why waste your time in normal? Heck most serious raiders already skip LFR entirely (unless they’re desperate to get a piece of tier or they need a conduit/lego) and probably only do normal once or twice. Again, only to fill that gap in tier.
Honestly, the argument being provided by the “don’t give them gear” people should be extrapolated further. If you don’t believe world gear should carry over to raid, then none of the “silos” of gear (pvp/world/M+/raid) should carry over to the other. But that’s horrible and they’ve already tried making gear work in one silo and it’s just bad, bad design for the players.
Here is the thing that the naysayers seem to be missing, what incentive is there for non-raiders to play once they hit 252 ilevel? I already can’t get into a mythic raid team on my main because there literally aren’t enough of them these days (our server is dying). So if there is no incentive (getting better gear) then why play?
Now you might say “who cares just quit”. But the problem with that is the problem I’ve already mentioned - servers are dying. We used to have a bunch of raiding guilds doing mythic and they are just folding one after the other. The raiding community will not survive without the non-raiding community because once enough of the casual community goes the game will shut down.
And if by some miracle blizzard don’t shut it down, then it’ll literally just be raiders and bots. And you’ll be buying your mats from bots.
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I mean thats a separate issue really. Server populations shift and change all the time. You always see serious raiders moving off smaller servers to the more populated ones for raid opportunities. Throwing more gear at people wont help that, because gear is not the issue. Server merges and cross faction raiding is something that will help that situation more than anything.
The vast number of those wanting more item level in world content, would not raid even if you gave them a 280 bis set of gear tomorrow. There is no gatekeeping to raiding other than your own ability to competently play your class and your ability to understand how to carry out a raid mechanic, and theres plenty of active, learner level guilds looking for raiders if thats something someone wants to explore.
yes its true, the majority of mythic level raiding guilds, skip normal entirely and go straight to heroic. I do it myself when im prog raiding with a steady team. But the majority of raiders are normal level capable or AOTC by end of tier at best. Someone who has zero raid awareness or ability to lay their class and spec will suck regardless of how much gear they have behind them. Raiders dont care what i level gear people get, but expecting to get gear thats power equivalent to raid loot or bis items, from non raid content that requires no thought, skill or effort, is a lil cringe.
The vast majority may not raid, but it directly affects raiders even still. Sooner or later the game will reach too small a mass and it will shut down. The less incentive you give non-raiders the more likely they are to quit the game. The more they quit the game the faster it approaches that tipping point of financial non-viability for Blizzard.
And if you gate the gear too hard then the catch up also deters casual raiders or people like me who took a break and want to get back into mythic raiding but now can’t.
We’ve seen that with a bunch of other mmos. And frankly while they’re charging too much money to server transfer I’m not going to do it, and neither will a lot of other players. I wish they still had accurate player counts that we could see. But that’s not going to happen again.
Regarding your last paragraph, if you go up through the comments you’ll see that a lot of the people who’d like equivalent gear aren’t asking or expecting them for nothing. They don’t want to open one ZM chest and get a 272. They would be happy with a route to higher level gear that doesn’t involve raiding. And frankly that seems fair. If someone puts in 12 hours a week playing and grinding rep or world quests that’s actually more time spent playing the game than a lot of raiders who tend to do two or three raids nights at 3 hours a night.
Or they’d like to see a long intricate quest (think vanilla Raid attunement long) that rewards higher gear. I can’t say that I’ve seen anyone in this thread demanding that they kill a single ZM rare or complete one bejeweled mini-game and out pops a 272 epic.
I think this line really contradicts itself. You’re essentially saying raider’s don’t care, but in the same breath saying they do. If raiders don’t care then you literally have zero argument against non-raiders getting gear. You obviously care to some extent, therein lies the contradiction.
Anyway, as I stated, I don’t think the majority of people asking for higher ilvl gear expect BIS gear nor are they asking for it. But they do want better gear. Most of the cypher gear for example has terrible stats (for any of my alts anyway). So even if I had 272 cypher gear I’d still have an incentive to do raid to get better itemized gear.
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Thats why a world content focused set would solve that issue. You do have world content gear atm tho. Anima gear is the basic catch up, And the cypher gear is your main world content grind, tho I think that set could have been better implemented. ZM catch up gear is stupidly easy to attain. The sandworn pieces are your next grind or should have been - again - I personally find this gear pretty useless. But that system would be what your world content gear grind equiv would be - tho instead of purely relic farming it should be coded with special quests/challenges etc that are relevant. If the sandworn gear were 268 item level I dont think anyone would complain. If it was considered BIS across the board with the same power advantage of raid/key gear then I think it would become an issue.
The thing is tho higher level gear wont solve anything, because item level is meaningless without the skill behind it. People like to throw around the word gating, but what exactly is stopping people from getting high level gear other than their own wishes. No one has a rock against your chest telling you, no, your not allowed to join a raid or jump into a key. But there needs to be a willingness to do 5 mins of research and personal accountability if your wanting to step into that content.
Top level raiders, are not raid logging. The only ones that do are either incredibly amazing at their class and the raid and already have their bis gear, or they have already cleared the content and are just on hiatus until the next tier drops. High level raiders have generally an expectation of clearing out all vault slots if they need upgrades and most high end guilds expect you to maintain at least 2 specs and some 2 or more raid ready toons, so there isnt really many that will be simply raid logging. And mix in the hours spent pouring over class discords, theory crafting, logs and having strat discussions. Its more time than you think.
If you re read what I said, I said the i level doesnt matter. The power behind a piece does. People get hung up on thinking a bigger item level means anything, it doesnt. For example, a raid finder i level sigil or old warriors soul, is BIS even in comparison to most mythic i level trinkets. So the value comes in the active power and stat stick of the item not in the item level itself. The same comes for rings, the value is in the stats not the item level. Naturally the higher the ilevel of those items the better, but it would be silly to have a super powerful bis item, from world content. Like I said, no issue with a set of mythic i level gear, but the power should be relevant to the content. You dont get all powerful items from no effort content.
ilevel is one thing that blocks people. Have you never seen M+ groups (or raids) asking for x ilevel before they’ll even consider you?
iLevel does matter for people even ignoring set bonuses. An identical 272 is always going to be better than the same piece as a 252 simply because of raw stats. even if it’s only by a few str/int/agi/crit/etc. And while individually each piece may only make a tiny difference they certainly add up. Heck even the raw stam on higher ilevel gear helps with survivability.
Now, obviously set bonuses have a bigger effect. And one could argue (rightly) that not making that available outside of raid is detrimental. Why? Because raid leaders will absolutely refuse to take people without the set bonus. Frankly any “super powerful bis items” is problematic because of exactly that reason. Though now we’re getting into a different argument “should blizzard allow super powerful items” in the first place. And I’m not going to get into that in this thread.
None of which is “open world content”. And I’m well aware of how long it takes thank you.
ilevel /gearing is better treated as a means to an end than the sole reward for content.
Within modern MMORPGs, it acts more as a way to tune content through patches and allow for a progression curve.
If somebody wants to weave in and out of content, letting them obtain good filler gear at a slower pace though more difficult world content, solo challenges, and crafting especially isn’t a huge deal, and never actually has been the few times it’s happened through the years, and it doesn’t actually cause problems in other games. Many players are more focused on going after cosmetics than ilevel now to chase carrots at end game.
It’s an MMORPG; raid, arenas, whatever, are not the sole endgame, nor even the actual end game for a lot of people, and those sorts of players have been driven off to either other games because WoW just hasn’t offered them anything for a very long time now.
Hell, even some people who do dabble in mid to high tier raids/PvP don’t want to do it constantly. I just fill in for friends, and it’d be nice to just relax after work and craft to get my gear, and just come whenever I feel like it. Something I’m now doing every once in a while in another game. (…where the majority of theirraids scale, so it doesn’t matter at all? I just log in and do raids when we feel like it, and then do other RPG stuff.)
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I think people with at least some base level player achievement like AOTC or KSM are also more likely to have something resembling an understanding of how the game as a whole works from class design to reward structure than someone who only does world content and doesn’t gain anything by studying those things.
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