On Era? Neither. 3 warriors or 3 mages. Nothing else does damage on Era.
No debuff limit and no world buffs? Warlocks.
But even with world buffs youāll still bring at least 2 warlocks for CoE and CoR, soulstones, summons, etc.
Ele you donāt need, it does everything worse than a mage.
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People who want Ret Paladin buffed with a Strike have NO IDEA what they are asking for. When the Ret Paladin gets a strike he walks through battlegrounds oneshotting everything.
TBC prepatch proves it:
The only thing i would consider adjusting is removing the fact that Freedom is counted as a Blessing. It feels entirely unpleasant that Freedom removes my Wisdom, forcing me to reapply it after.
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There are a couple of classes that Blizzard has to rein in and keep a close eye on. I think Paladins were under tuned on purpose and Warrior scaling was underestimated. We (Warriors) paid for that the rest of the time I played.
I remember these days from the real pre-TBC. We were just lucky that super geared Rets were uncommon.
you want 7 shamans for totems
We need a 100% meme spec Naxx to demonstrate that these āViable memesā are just being hard carried by people.
For every carried meme is many people annoyed at having to carry them / compete in loot with them
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Prepatch with adjusted talents and adjusted coefficients, homie. Mages and Rogues were both disgusting during TBC prepatch as well, whereas Ret fell back to the near bottom of the pack a few levels in. Mages and Rogues lasted the entirety of TBC. A 15 second CD on demand white swing isnt going to make Ret a 1v1 god anymore than Stormstrike does Enhancement.
That being said, before you start adjusting surface mechanics for Ret/Enh/Feral/Ele/Shadow/Balance, under-the-hood adjustments should be made first. Coefficients and behind the scenes mechanics. Any form of Classic+ needs to lead with that first. THEN passive talents (Sanctified Retribution needs to exist to make any aura besides Sanctity useful for Ret).
Pretty much, the fact is a meme spec is simple a spec not supported to the raid role by the game.
Sure you can just go for it, but i just dont see the appeal. And i play ret.
By the current standard or original Vanilla standard? By original Vanilla standards, current āmemespecsā can be pushed nearly as hard as DPS on world first kills from original Vanilla. We just know more about the inner workings of the game now and are able to squeeze far more out of specs that used to be considered āpvp onlyā.
From enchants to oils to chili to world buffs to engineering gadgets and obscure trinkets and proc stacking and more, modern players know how to get every last drop of potential performance out of their specs. Pushing 600+ DPS as Ret or Enh isnt even that far fetched. You might say ThAtS tOo LoW but then you realize that a raidwide DPS benchmark of 9500 DPS is all thats required to down Patchwerk before he hits his Enrage Timer.
A raid full of guys doing 600 DPS clears that with time to spare. With Patchwerk being THE DPS benchmark fight (do enough or die instantly) and the tightest tuned fight of its kind, what better measure of viability is there?
There isnt one. But people interchange the meanings of āviableā and āmetaā.
the raid tier items and drops tell a different story lol.
Ret is basically dependendt on spell damage, melee critical strike chance and even ranged hit chance cause of hammer fo wrath being ranged and the hit talent making no difference for it. Oh and spell hit chance too lol
Its obviously an afterthough spec.
It is low if you compare to other dps specs, simple like that.
Why are you rpetending peole dont know about all of it? lol. You jsut didnt like the community answer which is āno, we wont raid with meme specsā.
I have a ret and prot pally in my guild doing jsut fine in raids.
They still far behind other specs though, so when a progression wall hits they just heal.
Yes, and will be slower, some people dont wanna go slower, they wanna go fast. And they tend to be the ones min maxing and clearing endgame with ease.
They donāt.
They just dont care about being viable, they care about meta because it saves them from attriction and too much time spent.
An entire dps team doing what a current Ret or Enh can push can clear the hardest PvE DPS benchmark in the game with time to spare. That makes them raid-viable. It also means they were ALWAYS raid viable, people just didnt know how to do it back then.
It doesnt make them meta and at the end of the day, thats what people hate. If it isnt meta, they dont want it.
Just come out and say it out loud. Say it with your chest. You want to play with meta specs only. If its not something to be ashamed of, it shouldnt be difficult to admit to.
Truth.
For the original class designers the priorities are class fantasy, identity and role; they have said this in interviews. They werenāt thinking about the game the way the modern player base is. The raid designers werenāt sure what the comps would be or exactly how the players would tackle them. Blizzardās attitude towards the game was to put it in and let the players figure out how to do it and who to bring, effectively saying nothing at all about how to play.
And yeah viable does not mean optimal, it means you can make it work. I will always have the most respect for the original guilds that cleared this stuff when there was no information at all about the encounters or even an addon. The only way to beat the encounters was to do them and try stuff.
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Yet they will be slower.
Bro you can go dps as holy priest if u want. Some people wont go for it and will value compositon more than whatever you want.
Yes.
Its their right though.
I play ret for pvp, holy for raids and tank for 5-man dungeons.
I think you dont understand, the talk has been over decades ago, everyone know you can do 1/3 of the warrior dps and they will clear the raid taking longer.
Thing is people doing the 3/3 dps dont wanna share loot with the 1/3 dps and many others will have the following perspective you are beign carried.
And again for example there is no actual dps gear set for ret, the bwst bet you have is t2.5 and r13 gear and they still lack many of the basic requirements. it requires spell hit chance, melee(and ranged for HoW) hit chance, spell damage, melee critical trike, spell critical strike, spell damage and strenght. Not a single set kit engobles the full potetion for ret pallies, same cant be said about fury warriors which is just far easier to gear.
And its ok, i dont have to raid as dps to enjoy it at all.
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Its funny. All that to avoid saying out loud you ONLY want to play with meta specs. Just say it.
Also, the overwhelming majority of people dont care about speedclears. They care about dead bosses. The clique you run GDKP speedclears with is not indicative of āeveryoneā. Its indicative of everyone you deal with.
You made the choice to minmax the fun out of the game and reduce it to an excel spreadsheet. That doesnt mean everyone else has to and it doesnt mean everyone else even WANTS to.
You want meta. Most of us are happy with viable.
Any DPS spec that can sustain enough DPS long enough to down Patchwerk is PVE Raid DPS viable according to the benchmark Blizzard themselves set with the tightest PvE DPS check in Vanilla WoW.
Iāve said it a few times but it is worth repeating.
Go ahead and do a 40 man Druid raid, or Paladins, Shaman or whatever. Nothing but meme specs would be at least interesting. Maybe that just doesnāt work on some encounters without clever use of items or something, thatās fun and cool too.
There is nothing left to prove in speed clears and if you arenāt seriously trying to beat times from top guilds Iām not sure what the point is other than raiding faster which is cool but it comes with a cost of all the stuff you have to do outside the raid zone.
The fact that this discussion keeps popping up after 20 years would suggest otherwise.
āViableā in this case often means ācapable of being carried without too much issue in limited amountsā
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A vocal minority is still a minority. People want loot. Speedclearing is a very new niche. Progression raiding is not. Id venture that GDKPs have greater prevalence than focused speedclears and those two categories have a ton of overlap.
If you insist on speedclearing with meta specs only, go ahead. But quit insisting that everyone thinks like you do and plays like you do and that anyone who doesnt is a detriment to the people around them.
Also, easily clearing the highest PvE DPS benchmark the game has to offer inherently contradicts with ābeing carried.ā
If āmostā people didnāt care about clearing fast and efficiently then there wouldnāt be all these threads of āmemeā spec players complaining and being frustrated about not being able to get into raids
Not seeing a whole lot of either of those nowadays.
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Because most people still playing the game have come to terms with the fact that they wont get into as many groups as a meme spec and instead we get threads about ideas for classic+ class rebalancing
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