Dungeons shouldn’t drop the same loot as raids, they aren’t even comparable. For one, dungeon loot is scaled all xpac and the loot tables shouldn’t change. Also, dungeon loot shouldn’t be infinitely scaling higher and higher. That would make it a Diablo scenario where it becomes nothing about skill of timing a higher key and everything about eventually farming enough gear to get over the hump. A hard gear cap is needed. Raiding obviously isn’t going to have a generic loot table like dungeons. They add in tier sets, bonuses or whatever to get people into raid. Raiding is the main show. It’s also way more difficult that running keys early on. The only reason keys get “harder” is because eventually you scale them to a numerically impossible number.
The biggest joke is also the fact that you don’t have to time the dungeon to get the loot.
LOL True. You get everything from dungeons with out even doing them correctly. And a vault!
Homie is actually going to insist that a Heroic Terragrue kill should be more rewarding than timing a 22.
If you can’t have common sense, all I will say then is that we will inevitably see a 9.0.5 meta again where M+ is a viable progression pillar on its own and raiders get salty that “raids aren’t good enough”. People are pushing back against systems and we will see this type of meta again, if not sooner than later. It will happen, you will cry, end of story.
Correct, but how far is a fresh group raiders who do no m+ in the same situation going to make it in the current raid tier? There is only so much you can pull out of LFR, especially at the start. It is going to take more than a couple weeks just to get through heroic. Heck normal in 2 or 3 weeks is going to be a little rough without being propped up by M+ gear.
As you pointed out in another post, raiding is pass/fail. This means that without some outside source of gear, raiding is going to result in a lot more fail than pass. Where M+ is going to still reward gear, even if that is not at max level. More importantly, if you get a particularly good piece, like the better trinkets, you can eventually upgrade that to 246 to hold you over until the vault gives you what you want.
Timing anything higher than a 15 is novelty. It’s all about pushing the ladder ranks and getting ports at 20+. People who run keys up to 2800+ IO do it for the fun. All the 2800+ people in my guild don’t do it for the loot, even though it’s really good.
Also, no dom bonuses and only the actual socket effect is in the gear. So a 252 is very good. You can push 25+ keys with only M+ gear. And again, giving infinite scaling gear to dungeons would be stupid. There’d be no end to it and timing a higher key would mean nothing.
Honestly my line for a 15 is heroic painsmith and normal KT but obviously there is a lot of subjectivity here. Either way the gear disparity is pretty wide considering the final tally of the rewards for doing one versus the other.
Nobody is asking for infinite scaling. But maybe, just maybe, the absolute best gear from one of the “core game pillars” shouldn’t outclassed by loot from heroic terragrue. Just some food for though.
As far as “pushing 25s with no dom sockets”… you can also probably kill Mythic Sylvanas with only gear from heroic SoD now that raids have access to the fully upgraded gem bonuses. Nobody would legitimately say that Mythic shouldn’t drop loot simply because that might be true. And not a single raider in the world would be happy if some of their best gear was clowned by some mid-level M+ gear… we literally saw that play out in 9.0.5 and raiders cried their eyes out, so don’t pretend that somehow this is an unreasonable ask, because raiders ask for their gear to be more rewarding all the bloody time, lol.
M+ minmaxer is kinda cringe not gonna lie.
M+15 also have trinkets that are more broken than all Mythic raid trinkets on some class, despite being 7500% harder.
I won’t oppose the removal of dom socket on Tarragrue as long as trinkets like Phial be removed from the game.
actual kekw
It’s just as much joke as shoulder from Tarragrue, just because you call it out first doesn’t mean it’s true lol.
Tell me, do you really think you’re “skilled” for playing the same old content for 1 year at this point?
Do you think that you, random troll hiding behind an alt, are the authority on what is skilled in this game? Lol. Give me a break kid.
I can guarantee you that you’ll get more wipe from pug LFR KT than pug +15.
Do nothing but heroic Terrague on one character. Do nothing but a single 15 on another. Even in the space of 1 week, that person doing the 15 will be way ahead.
Steelman this. Do nothing but mythic Terrague on one character. Do nothing but a 15 on the other. The first couple weeks, at best possible luck, they will be neck and neck. But after that character gets everything possible from Terrague, the M+ character will significantly pull ahead every week.
Extend that example to progressively more bosses in the raid. Two bosses per week vs one m+. Three bosses per week vs one m+. It takes quite a few to catch up to what can be done with with just that one 15 m+ per week. Probably around 4 bosses in mythic is the inflection point. And part of that is Blizzard didn’t piss on where certain items (cough stupid weapon cough) drop like they did in Castle Nath.
That’s what is known as a good problem to have… having an item drop that’s worth upgrading in the first place.
Using the 1st boss to compare it to any other boss is stupid and you should know that. Further using the initial learning curve of a raid isn’t a justification for M+'s 3rd slot taking more runs than both slot 1 and 2 combined and being an exponential jump in time and effort instead of linear. Learning a new heroic boss isn’t an exponential jump in time and falls down drastically once your raid already knows it. Just because most of the M+ learning is front loaded at the start of an expansion doesn’t mean they don’t do it too either.
You are further assuming the raid tanks and healers have time for all the dps, which functionally just leads to them burning out and puts a major imposition on them.
Let alone this expansion patch the amount of dead slots for M+ gear between your legendary and dom slots makes it very easy for your M+ rolls to be duds even beyond the larger gear pool your rolling from than your raid vault slots.
You haven’t made any argument that makes the 3rd M+ slot taking 6 additional runs make a lick of sense, or better than having a more reasonable number of 8 total.
Just gotta give up man. The people in this thread are literally the reason Blizzard completely ignores these forums for feedback. Most of the people here are not good enough at the game to understand gearing this patch.
Gear progression thru M+ is FAR faster than any other source. You just haven’t done all of them. I have 3 toons all at 246+ 99% of which is because of my M+ vault. I’m only 1/10 mythic so far.
Actually it is people like you who should have legitimate things to say, but can’t pry your lips off your own pickle and have a rational discussion, so instead waste your time attacking the person instead of their argument. If you think someone from Blizzard comes to this forum and sees a response like yours with what boils down to “lol noob” and thinks that is worth anybody’s time in Irvine… I don’t know what to tell you. You’re not half as wise as you think.
It was fun memeing on you for it though. Thanks for that. 
If you want to know how to disagree, ask Sentenzah. I still respect him. He was spicy, but so was I. What he did different was use actual counter points. It is too bad him and Laragonsia got into it with irrelevancies.
Honorable mention to Kae who summed it up better than I did and to the OP who took a lot of shots but stayed civil. 
I’d still say it depends on the raider. Come to ally sometime to see how this power curve is more relevant on Ally. 
That’s why the first few bosses are always so easy in the raid. But it could definitely be better. The steps are so small in mythic plus that the steps are basically a ramp