I don’t know the exact numbers for honor per hour, but you don’t even need vault pieces anymore to be pvping at the max item level since gear ranks up in pvp now. Raiding, yes, at the beginning, takes the most commitment. You need to prog every boss, organize 10 or more players, and finally clear it after however many scheduled weeks; my point about the difference with raiding is that after the progression, it takes maybe 3-4 hours a week in a casual raiding guild. You get max item level drops from the raid AND get a free 3 pieces to choose from. So where is mythic+?
If you’re doing only 10 15s, bare minimum, in a regular pickup group you’ll have to spend 5 hours a week(or more if you don’t time, something you have to account for in pugs), if you do all of them in 30 minutes, to get you best chance at 1(!) max item level item. You get 750 valor a week to slowly get your drops, which start very low, lower than heroic raids, which makes no sense in my opinion, to ilvl246, very slowly, upgrading maybe two pieces once per week. I think that something needs to be done about this. There is already a load of rng involved in the loot systems in this game and to have one that moves so slowly(it was fine and balanced, kinda, when mythic+ was the only pve loot chest) is kind of only hurting the game.
IF you take all 3 separately from each other . The only reason M+ looks slower and requires a little more weekly commitment to reach 3 options , is due to being farmable as much as you want and with how much bigger the loot pool is compared to raid or pvp .
IF you only do m+ , ofc the valor gains feels bad since you need to upgrade every slot and having more valor earned does not affect other endgames either . Remove valor cap , keep everything like it is ?
Speaking as someone who is pretty mediocre (and adorable!), the gear progression is slower but it gives me much better gear. If I were gearing through pvp, I would get hardstuck at 1600 like I am on my pvp hunter. So that gives me 233/246 gear? Which isn’t bad, I guess. But the conquest grind is looong. If I were mythic raiding (which, btw, I think is way more of a commitment than doing mythic plus at the highest gear-rewarding level), sure, I could probably get three bosses and a 252 piece every week. But (1) I pug everything and (2) cross realm isn’t even open yet, so I don’t think I’d get far. I’d be raiding heroic if anything and that only gives 246.
If you have a set group, M+ gear can be incredibly fast.
Once you are able do above +15s you get 3 pieces of loot per run which is a higher loot drop rate than any other source. Especially since the loot amount is uncapped.
And of course, you get choices of Mythic raid ilvl gear from the vault
you think a casual raiding guild is clearing mythic in 3-4 hours a week after a few weeks of progression?
you are delusional
actually, after re-reading it - this can’t be anything but a troll. There is no way someone legitimately believes m+ is the slowest way to gear up.
yes the farming things is a very good point, but with the lockout on upgrading gear being weekly, isn’t it the same thing? i agree with removing the cap
Bring back titanforging
not just a couple weeks, it could take all of the patch to get it on farm, but that’s why i said debatably. once you have it though, and you’re one-shotting every boss, it takes like 3-4 hours.
M+ is the fastest way to gear up. Look at nearly any mythic raider’s gear I guarantee its at least 50% M+ gear. A casual mythic raid group is 6-8 hours per week with no vault until 3 bosses are down.
You’re drunk go home.
remove the cap so we can no-life it in the first week and be fully 246 geared by the time mythic opens.
yea that’ll happen.
this. the disparity in the vault between m+ and raid is astronomical.
you get a 252 item in your vault from doing one half hour dungeon.
raiders don’t get a 252 item in their vault until they kill three mythic bosses.
killing three mythic bosses is far more difficult/time-consuming/personell investment than doing one dungeon.
No remove it mid patch (like now for patch 9.1) 
M+ is not only infinitely farmable, but it’s also the easiest of the three big options. Once you are able to time an M15 you can spam an M15 as many times as you and your friends, guild, premade group or whatever can be bothered to spam.
That’s also why the iLVL is the lowest of the big three. Raiding is locked per kill and PVP is gated by the currency. Granted you eventually get gated by valor with M+ and some luck with your cache, you can still gear up a new alt from nothing to 236 in a week if you really wanted to. Than you can jump straight into mythic raiding as a supplement while waiting for valor.
i was waiting for someone to say this. I mean the real progression of getting from 246 to 252 in with actually GOOD pieces of gear for your class/spec
Given my skill level, I’ll always be able to get better gear from the m+ vault than raiding or PvP.
M+ is the only source of spammable content for gear ingame. You can run 100 keys in a week if you wanted (although I don’t recommend it). Raiding is literally you either get loot or you don’t when you kill the 10 bosses and is not good for catching up on gear like M+.
The valor system is great, but it’s also like playing the lottery. I’ve spent points upgrading items to 246 to only get a 252 replacement 2-3 weeks later. If you could recycle items for valor points that’d be pretty dope.
Either way for most people outside of mythic raiders doing reclears of 10/10 (or you’re wearing heroic pieces for the dommie set bonus)… M+ is your primary source of endgame loot.
I think you’re “slightly” glossing over how hard mythic raids are to clear.
The extreme majority of guilds could never in their life kill more than the first few bosses.
There is no “progression to a full clear” it is just a brick wall.
Mythic+, at the 15 level where rewards stop is massively easier and actually possible.
Ppl always forget to add the initial investment and just move directly to the daily routine
First -if you have to go from +0 to +15 for every dungeon ,
Second -you have to have a score higher than required to have constant invites
Third -pugs invites are very spec and class dependant so you can be waiting or you can be getting instant invites
Fourth- its a pug bad stuff happens
After you have done and agreed with all that which would probably take about 100’s of hours and 1000’s if you start at scratch then you can do your 5 hours per week
Mythic+ is easiest to me. It’s faster to group. It’s faster to finish. It has higher ilevel loots.
I am getting ilevel 249s now on my Mythic+ vault loot compared to ilevel 239 from Heroic Raids. That’s from M+14 and it’s way easier to repeatedly beat as PuGs compared to Heroic Bosses. I would rather devote my time on Mythic+ which is way easier to carry.
Carrying the raid is impossible. Carrying an M+ group is way easier becoz it has less people.
Your posts drip with lack of understanding of how the vault works and the time invested to get those rewards.
This is more reasonable, but you’ve forgotten this applies to raiding too.
- First you have to learn the fights on normal/heroic. This is easily equivalent to leveling that first key, including the gear involved. Except you can’t squirrel away a lower level piece to upgrade later of your luck at higher difficulties fails.
- Second, you have to maintain a level play suitable for your raid to continue progressing. Or you AND your raid don’t progress.
- Third raids also require certain roles and classes. Mythic requires 20 people, which is substantially harder to put together than 5.
- Fourth, if you have never progressed mythic, bad stuff happening and finding ways to overcome that is 90% of what you do. And if you don’t win, you get ZERO item reward. Watch the next world first streams and see how much is just dying and starting over. And that is as GOOD as it gets. Cry me a river over sloppy pugs.
Your big fallacy here is you are comparing pugging dungeons to organized raiding. Try pugging raids, especially mythic, and see how that stacks up to dungeons.
Oh no sorry , i did not mean it this way , im clearing 15s and only 9/10H , it was mostly to put focus on how m+ isnt as slow as it may seem