vanilla raiding was never really about the challenge, and far more about the gear checks and mob density.
I can’t help but agree with OP to a degree, especially considering the patch level which very much trivializes the game from Vanilla. The game by its very nature has a shelf life, and trivializing it greatly reduces that shelf-life.
Guess I gotta keep repeating myself…
Discounting Ragnaros, molten core wasn’t hard. Not in 1.10, or 1.8, or 1.6, or 1.3. What’s more, all the major reworks (including debug limit) were done when BWL launched, MC is the only raid that will be “nerfed” by the patch point. That’s still not going to stop the other raids being steamrolled though.
Wipe the servers and make it harder
You’re having a laugh right?
tHe GaMe WaS aLwAyS ThIs EaSy PlAy ReTaiL PlZ nO cHaNgEs!1
I’ve scanned all the Classic patches from 1.1 to 1.12, and compiled all the nerfs and major changes made to instance difficulty and overall gameplay and itemisation. I left out all the changes made to Classes, talents trees, professions and in-depth item changes.
Patch 1.1 and 1.2 - Didn’t bring major changes in terms of gameplay or progression to the game, only some minor class tweaks. Maraudon added to the game.
Patch 1.3
This were changes to raid/dungeons difficulties started to happen.
New dungeon Dire Maul ? 5 man cap
New world bosses - Azuregos, and Lord Kazzak
MC teleport quest - Attunement to the Core
New dungeons player caps ? All dungeons and raids were previously 40man cap, with the new patch they’re now the following, Ony/MC 40man, UBRS/LBRS 15man, Diremaul 5 man, every other dungeon 10man. Several dungeons will be re-examined for balancing in light of this change.
Nerfs to dungeons and raids (and some loot changes) ?
Lengthened the respawn time of many of the creatures in Ragefire Chasm, Gnomeregan, Uldaman, Razorfen Downs, Scholomance, and Stratholme.
OnyxiaOnyxia’s fireballs will no longer result in a confuse effect (Engulfing Flames). The impact damage of these fireballs has been slightly increased to compensate for the loss of the damage over time.
Increased the delay before Onyxia will try to tail sweep.
StratholmeBaroness Anastasi in Stratholme will now leave the possessed target when the target is below 50% health, instead of 30%. She will also cast Possession slightly less often.
Roaming Gargoyles will be set to a 30-minute respawn.
Roaming Shades set to 15-30 minute respawn (previously 5-15).
Patchwork Horrors set to 15-30 minute respawn (previously 6-10).
Overall respawn in the entire dungeon made longer.
Crimson Conjurers will no longer roam in pairs.
Crimson Conjurers can now only have a max of two “pets” at one time.
ScholomanceLengthened the overall respawn of the dungeon.
Risen Aberration health and damage reduced.
Reduced the duration of Dark Plague from three minutes to 90 seconds.
The creature spell, Call of the Grave, has had its damage reduced by half.
Blackrock SpireSpire Spiders now only summon four Spire Spiderlings instead of five.
Health and damage on these Spire Spiderlings has been reduced.
Crystallize has been reduced from eight seconds to six seconds.
MaraudonNoxxion encounter made easier for groups lacking area of effect damage.
Zul’Farrak
Dead Hero will now always drop an uncommon random item.
Witch Doctor Zum’rah’s loot table was improved.
Toned down the Zigguraut event.
Toned down the Antu’sul event.
Scarabs will no longer flee when at low health.
Patch 1.4After patch 1.3 changed the player caps, many dungeons were nerfed and their loot tables received major buffs making Raids such as Ony and MC easier due to better gear stats.
Major change to the 5 seconds rule and how healer play in general ? “Mana regeneration is now disrupted when a spell has completed casting rather than at the start of casting. It will resume normally five seconds after the last spell cast. This change increases the total time spent regenerating mana and therefore increases the total contribution from Spirit for mana-based classes.” This allowed a playstyle of pre-casting heals and interrupting them when the tank avoids dmg, by blocking parrying or dodging, making it much easier to save mana while keeping the tank always full HP.
Nerfs to dungeons and raids ?
Bael’Gar, Lord Incendius, and Golem Lord Argelmach are now lower level than previously.
The Baroness Anastari encounter has been changed. Players who become unpossessed will now have full health, and after the Baroness unpossesses a player there will be a much longer cooldown before she can cast possess again.
Lava Surgers no longer respawn once you kill Garr.
Ragnaros now stays up 2 hours rather than 1 after being summoned.
The Golemagg and Shazzrah encounters in the Molten Core has undergone some changes. (nothing specified in the patch notes, but probably nerds aswell)
Major itemisation buffs to all high level dungeons (many blue rare items were added to the game making the content a lot more trivial) ?Scholomance Itemization
20 new Rare items have been added to Scholomance.
Several Uncommon items have been upgraded to Rare quality.
Rattlegore, Jandice Barov, and Lord Alexei Barov will now always drop at least one Rare item.
Ras Frostwhisper will always drop at least two Rare items.
Stratholme Itemization26 new Rare items have been added to Stratholme.
Several Uncommon items have been upgraded to Rare quality.
Archivist Galford, Baroness Anastasi, Nerub’enkan, and Maleki the Pallid will now always drop at least one Rare item.
Raid ItemizationOnyxia, Azuregos, Lord Kazzak, and all Molten Core boss creatures have all received some new items on their loot tables.
Onyxia will once again drop two upper tier class set helms.
Most of the non-class set items that dropped from Molten Core and Onyxia have had their effective levels increased, resulting in higher DPS weapons, and/or better stats and effects.
Players who defeat the Majordomo Executus encounter will now be rewarded with new epic items. This reward will only be granted the first time the encounter is defeated during the 6 day lifespan of a Molten Core instance.
The loot tables for some of the Molten Core bosses have been improved so they drop an additional epic item per kill.
World bosses such as Onyxia, Azuregos, and Lord Kazzak will no longer drop random blue items of a level lower than 50 (buff because it will drop high level items instead).
Prior to this patch, Molten Core boss creatures could drop items from one of two different tiered sets for every character class. The loot tables have been changed so Molten Core bosses will now only drop items from the lower tier class sets. However, some of the items from those sets were not previously dropping in Molten Core. These missing class set items will now drop in Molten Core, allowing players to complete their lower tier class sets. The higher tier class set pieces that once dropped in Molten Core will be found once again in Blackwing Lair, the next raiding zone scheduled for release in a future patch (this only happened in US servers, because EU was release later and didn’t have acces to tier 2 sets on MC).
Future patches will include even more item rewards for these raid encounters, as well as improvements to the statistics, effects, and set bonuses for both tiers of the raid armor sets.
Patch 1.5Battlegrounds were introduced and Ragnaros had a minor nerf, new items.
Molten Core
Lava eruptions (lava splash) only occur while Ragnaros is in combat, but occur less frequently, do less damage, and the damage they inflict is now resistible.
Additional new raid items have been added to the treasure lists for Azuregos, Lord Kazzak, and bosses in Molten Core.
Patch 1.6BWL is introduced
1.6.1 patch - The timer for Vaelastrasz the Corrupt is now more persistent. You can no longer reset the one-hour time limit for beating him by leaving the instance. Also, Vaelastrasz the Corrupt will not respawn for 12 hours if he has not been beaten when the timer expires.
Darkmoon cards introduced.
Raids and dungeons
Several spawns removed from Scholomance.
Several spawns removed from Stratholme. Also, you will now be able to make additional attempts at Ramstein and/or Baron Rivendare should your initial attempt fail.
The trapped chests in Stratholme will now show up for [Detect Traps] and can be disarmed. In addition, the number of creatures that come out of the trapped chests has been reduced.
The loot tables in Molten Core have been revised slightly.
The chance for an Epic quest item dropping from the Majordomo’s chest has been increased to 100%.
Patch 1.7ZG introduced
AV introduced
General
Debuff limit increase to 16 (previously 8)
Switching weapons in combat triggers a 1 second global cooldown for all abilities for rogues and a 1.5 second global cooldown for everyone else.
When you swap weapons in combat, you start your swing again, instead of continuing your last swing
Patch 1.8Dragons of Nightmare world boss introduced.
Dungeons and Raids ?
Zul’Gurub
Reduced the damage of the Mad Servant’s fireball
Reduced the number of Mad Voidwalkers that are summoned from the death of a Mad Servant from three to two.
Slowed the rate at which High Priestess Arlokk’s panthers spawn
Blackwing LairThere is no longer a one-hour time restriction on the Vaelastraz the Corrupt encounter in Blackwing Lair.
Patch 1.9AQ Raids introduced.
Changes to Raid Calendar System - The raid-lockout system has undergone a significant change. The new system will have all instances reset at a certain server time, regardless of when you were actually saved to the instance. The reset schedule is as follows:
Molten Core: Every 7 Days, resetting during weekly maintenance.
Blackwing Lair: Every 7 Days, resetting during weekly maintenance
Onyxia: Every 5 Days
Zul’Gurub: Every 3 Days
Temple of Ahn’Qiraj (40-man): Every 7 Days, resetting during weekly maintenance
Ruins of Ahn’Qiraj (20-man): Every 3 Days
Dungeons and Raids (1.9.3) ?Zul’Gurub
A small number of spawns have been removed from Zul’Gurub to allow for a slightly faster clearing time.
Increased cooldown on Poison Bolt Volley of High Priestess Mar’li.
Reduced the melee damage of High Priestess Mar’li.
Reduced the overall damage of High Priest Thekal.
Slowed the rate at which the panthers spawn during the High Priestess Arlokk fight.
Reduced the duration of Lethon’s Draw Spirit from 7 seconds to 5 seconds.
HakkarMelee damage reduced.
Cause Insanity will no longer remove all threat gained.
Reduced the damage dealt by Poisonous Blood Siphon.
Increased cooldown on Blood Siphon.
No longer has the Slow ability.
Corrupted Blood now deals direct damage with a following damage over time effect and no longer spreads to others in the raid.
Patch 1.10Weather Effects!
High-Level Armor Sets introduced (tier 0.5)
High-Level Instance Changes - Along with the new Armor Sets, the high-level 5-10 man dungeons have received some changes regarding loot. Many items have been improved in quality and use. In addition, several epic items, have had their drop rates significantly increased. In order to preserve the challenge of these dungeons, they have had their instance caps lowered. Stratholme, Scholomance, and Blackrock Depths now allow a maximum of 5 players inside, and Blackrock Spire allows a maximum of 10.
Itemisation buffs ?
Relics have been introduced to the game. These are class specific items for Druids, Paladins, and Shaman which can be equipped in the ranged slot. Currently there are a handful for each class which can be found scattered throughout Blackrock Depths, Blackrock Spire, Dire Maul, Scholomance, Stratholme, and The Temple of Ahn’Qiraj. We hope that you enjoy the first round of available relics and we will continue to add more in future patches.
Many items in Blackrock Depths, Stratholme, Scholomance, and Blackrock Spire have been re-evaluated and adjusted to make them more appealing. In addition several new items have been added to all of these instances.
The following item sets have had their set bonuses adjusted/increased: Valor, Magister’s, Lightforge, Shadowcraft, Dreadmist, Devout, Wildheart, Beaststalker, and Elements.
The locations of some of the waist, wrist, and hand slot pieces of the dungeon armor sets have been moved from their old creatures, including the [Lightforge Gauntlets] and the [Magister’s Boots]. Additional creature types can now drop many of the previously difficult to obtain armor pieces.
Raids & Dungeons ?Ruins of Ahn’Qiraj
Ayamiss the Hunter now flies down from the air much earlier.
The Plague effect from Anubisath Defenders and Anubisath Sentinel’s is no longer amplified by +damage gear.
Removed the stacking acid from the Flesh Tentacles in the C’thun encounter.
Digestive Acid now increases its effect over time during the C’thun encounter.
Lowered the amount of knockback dealt by Giant Tentacles.
Tentacles should no longer spawn on players who have just been knocked back by a previous tentacle.
Blackrock SpireSome monsters were removed to reduce the time it takes to run the dungeon.
Mother’s Milk off Mother Smolderweb will now only affect players.
Spire Spiderlings now have fewer hitpoints.
Patch 1.11Naxxramas introduced
Dungeons and Raids ?
Zul’Gurub
Class specific armor quests given by the Zandalarian trolls of Yojamba Isle no longer require Bijous or coins for completion. Armor quests now only require a Primal Hakkari piece and appropriate faction with Zandalar.
Class specific enchantments given by Zanza the Restless no longer require Arcanum (Librams) from Dire Maul. The requirements have been changed to items found within Zul’Gurub. Speak with Zanza the Restless for more information.
The various clan speakers (Bloodscalp Speaker, Sandfury Speaker, etc) have had their hit points reduced considerably.
Zandalarian Armor Replacement - Due to the changes made to the armor rewards from the Paragons of Power quests, the trolls of Yojamba Isle will now offer to replace pieces of armor that have been lost or deleted.
After careful consideration we have decided to add an additional loot table to the High Priests of Zul’Gurub. Players should now see two items in addition to the tokens when slaying these bosses.
When Hakkar gains the Berserk effect, Hakkar will now emote that he is berserk instead of emoting that he is enraged.
Ruins of Ahn’QirajOssirian the Unscarred - There is a new crystal that will be visible before the encounter begins. Players can use this crystal just like any other crystal in the encounter, but it cannot come back up during the encounter.
Ruins of Ahn’Qiraj Class Set Reward Replacement - Due to the changes made to the rewards from the Ruins of Ahn’Qiraj class set quests, players can obtain replacements for lost or deleted quest rewards from Warden Haro, Keyl Swiftclaw, and Windcaller Yessendra in Cenarion Hold.
The hitpoints of every creature in the General Rajaxx encounter has been lowered.
Damage of General Rajaxx has been lowered.
Patch 1.12Raids and Dungeons ?
Uldaman
Reduced the number of Shadowforge Ambushers that attack after looting the quest chest.
Shadowforge Ambushers are no longer elite.
The respawn of the Stone Stewards has been changed to 2 hours (from 30 minutes).
Zul’FarrakThe respawn of the 2 Troll/1 Basilisk patrollers should now be 2 hours.
Reduced the damage dealt by the Sul’lithuz Abomination and Sul’lithuz Sandcrawler.
Zul’Farrak Dead Heroes are no longer elites.
Theka the Martyr will now only remain immune to physical damage for 30 seconds before reverting to normal.
Antu’sul’s Sul’lithuz Broodlings now only hatch 4 at a time and are significantly weaker.
Witch Doctor Zum’rah will no longer call as many Zul’Farrak Zombies to his aid when aggroed.
Antu’sul’s Warden no longer attempts to knock adventurers into Antu’sul’s lair.
Sandfury Cretins who engage the party during the pyramid event are no longer able to cast shadow bolt.Tranquility - Cooldown reduced to 5 minutes. Mana cost reduced by 25%.
Paladins can now learn Greater Blessings
All Greater Blessings now have increased range.
New Spell: Righteous Fury (level 16) - Increases the threat generated by the Paladin’s Holy attacks by 60%. Lasts 30 minutes.
Holy Shield - Tooltip updated to reflect that damage caused by Holy Shield causes 20% additional threat. This has been active since 1.9, but was undocumented.
Blessing of Wisdom - Mana regeneration over time will no longer generate threat.
Shard bags
You will no longer lose your current target when affected by a crowd control spell
You are no longer kept in combat while on auto-attack at long range.
Healing Touch - Mana cost on all ranks reduced approximately 9%.
Gift of the Wild - Range and area of effect increased.
Nature’s Swiftness - Now makes Rebirth and Soothe Animal spells instant cast.
Bestial Wrath - No longer generates threat for the Hunter.
Lay on Hands - Range increased.
Divine Intervention - Range increased.
Desperate Prayer (Dwarf/Human) - Cooldown reduced.
Heal - Ranks 2, 3, and 4, cast time reduced to 3 seconds. Rank 1 mana cost dropped approximately 9%. Rank 2, 3, and 4 the healing amount has been reduced to generate the same amount of healing per cast time as before the cast time was reduced. Rank 2, 3, and 4, the mana cost was reduced to cost approximately 9% less mana per point of healing generated. The net effect on all ranks is that the healing per mana is 10% higher, the cast time is limited to 3 seconds, and the healing per second is unchanged. Note that spells with less than 3.5 second cast time will not receive the full bonus from plus healing items.
Greater Heal - Cast time reduced to 3 seconds. Healing and Mana cost reduced so that the healing per second is unchanged, but the healing per mana is increased approximately 10%. Note that spells with less than 3.5 second cast time will not receive the full bonus from plus healing item
Holy Nova - Self cooldown on this spell removed. Mana cost increased.
Healing Wave - Mana cost on all ranks reduced approximately 9%.
Logging back in after a disconnect from the server has been greatly improved, and players should now rarely receive the message “A character with that name already exists.”
Temporary item buffs (e.g. poisons, sharpening stones and shaman weapon buffs) will persist through zoning or logging out.
Periodic Healing: Spells which do periodic healing will now have their strength determined at the moment they are cast. Changing the amount of bonus healing you have during the duration of the periodic spell will have no impact on how much it heals for.
Innervate: This spell is now a base ability for all Druids, trainable at level 40. Any Druid who formerly had the Innervate talent now has the Swiftmend talent instead.
Swiftmend: This new talent has been added to the Druid Restoration tree, replacing Innervate as the 31 point ultimate talent. It consumes a Rejuvenation or Regrowth aura to produce an instant heal.
Healing-over-time spells should now be improved by “+Healing” items when cast on other players.
unless you are claiming the average iq for 99% of the playerbase in vanilla was lower than koko the gorilla’s
Well to be 100% fair, it was.
I never said it was. In fact I distinctly said it wasn’t lol. That doesn’t change the fact that the overall game is far easier in this patch level due to drastic reductions in mob life/damage/density in the 55-60 dungeons as well as a great reduction in MC trash. That doesn’t mean those raids were “harder”, but they were FAR more tedious to get through and far more time-consuming. And the dungeon nerf blew everyone past those dungeons and pushed them into irrelevance, which of course made sense at the time because it’s a progression game and all that, but doesn’t change the fact that it patently decreased the overall difficulty of the game on a whole by a significant margin.
As for the lack of available knowledge, that’s pure and utter BS. We didn’t need youtube videos to trade information. WoWHead was just as alive and well back then as it is now, with plenty of raiding strategies not to mention many other available sites that were well published within the community.
no. people are remembering earlier patches in vanilla where it was indeed harder. stuff like wonky talent tree choices before the class balance patches and itemization being in their pre 1.12 state and all the buggyness that was early wow.
they arent remembering what it was like at the end of vanilla wow.
it is true that it was a buggy mess with bad things about nearly every class for most of vanilla.
people arent remembering how ez nearly everything in the game was in 1.10 and later.
so either petition for the early crap like real itemization from back then and not 1.12 item stats and just phasing changes to loot tables or just sit back and be thankful for what we have been given.
How would you recommend they remedy this? The only way I could think of is by raising the bosses’ health and damage numbers.
This is what they should have done. They should have had players play-testing the endgame for weeks or months in beta and should have tweaked the difficulty so that it was as “difficult” as each dungeon was when that dungeon was first release. It’s almost like Blizzard doesn’t give a #$@%. Guess what, they don’t.
Because they’re too lazy to properly replicate the code of the actual vanilla client.
Dont focus on what other people are clearing, focus on what you and your friends are clearing.
It doesnt matter to me at all that somebody hit MC already. There’s a lot of time and content between me and the Firelord. To me Classic is about the journey, not the destination.
Unless you’ve cleared MC you probably shouldn’t complain about how easy MC is
I’m getting so sick of these dumbass threads
Of course a bunch of professionals would do this MC easily.
Now, snowflake op, reach lvl 60 and post in this same thread the screenshot with the date that your raid downed Ragnaros.
Cya in a feel months.
This not to mention ive seen multiple bugs… some small one’s but some others just being ignored basically by the dev’s. I barely clicked in retail when it was vanilla and switched over to key binds in early early tbc and I can promise you vanilla was harder back then… it wasn’t as easy as it is now… 1.12 was a catch up patch for those raids and they got tuned down… so it was a breeze… almost laughable that less than half a group could finish 40% HP.
Debuff limit yes but most of the class reworks, which were big buffs for most classes, weren’t.
Imagine thinking a PS is the authentic experiance
Everyone is a pro.
Don’t you know?
The shelf life is far longer than you think. What is it realistically? 3 years? 4 years?
Maybe 5+? Again content especially Raiding is supposed to be completed and trivialized so you can move onto other aspects of the game. The End Game starts after BiS gear and Raiding is done. There is plenty in this game to do.
Any great game will never be built on content as I have said it’s the smallest part of the game. I think the best time for this game will be the years that follow Naxx. It has a near infinite shelf life in ways. The content shouldn’t be hard and only a gear check. Then it should be on farm.
The goal of RPG content is to be able to easily farm it once you have the correct gear. Then move onto other journey’s. People are seriously mistaken about the shelf life of this game. That is unfortunately the brain washing of modern day Blizzard who forever dangles new content in front of you, instead of making a great game that doesn’t need new content.
Great games are played for years and years after the content is completed. These are facts.
While I’m in agreement with the balance of your post, should be noted that BWL on initial launch was all kinds of screwed up, with many bosses not even using their abilities. Blizzard had to close off everything after Vael and rework it.
Because I’m betting most of us can’t, even with 60’s. You’ll read about this on these forums, once things catch up.
People will be surprised, thinking it is easy.