Players have (at least in their opinion) a legitimate concern.
You don’t have to agree, but making snide strawman arguments about it is not helping.
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but its not a legitimate concern, a legitimate concern is how you have to spend 3 other points to make horsey a great speed cd like in SL. 90% of these complaints are about the fact its a horsey instead of a glowy aura that made you sprint
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‘‘Great’’ its bad in SL and its even worse in DF, people usually complain about the horse overall, why so many points, why less duration than in DF, why is it slowable, and most of all people want it gone rather than fixed so ofc theres more of that, youre just focusing your critisicm on the ones that you do hear cause they constantly get to the top of the forums on how much people dont want this spell back.
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Aesthetics are important and a legitimate concern
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horse legit becomes a 10 second speed boost if you have full level conduit and the talent. you can legit use it to escape anything. speed of light is a 8 second 70% speed boost on a 45 second cd. literally inferior
in the grand scheme of things, not really. but if it really that important to you, then ask for a glyph to remove horsey. dont ask for the complete removal of a good ability. when all it needs is for the duration to be baked into it
This goes away in DF thou. its back to its base far inferior version that is on par with speed of light. Also the amount of times i pop it and dont move anywhere due to it getting stuck on a ground tile or can’t press it due to being gcd locked, just makes it pointless filler as if i need to press it i usually cant and by the time i can its too late.
And saying its a good ability after SL wont true at all as one of the very few posts we have had is a post stating that high mobility is not going to be part of the Paladin toolkit.
I agree, leave the horse there for ppl that want it, but offer something to others as a choice node with it or better yet, give both and leave horse on the gcd and have speed ogcd to balance it.
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Speed of light is what became pony. No one picked speed of light for their movement when it was live it was a dead talent compared to the short sprints you got from judgment for 3 sec of 45% on a 5 sec cooldown.
I don’t want Speed of Light or Divine Steed… I want the pre-Legion mobility package back -
Emancipate, Long Arm of the Law, 2 charges of Freedom, Seal of Justice, etc.
Paladin was never the wheelchair class before Legion revamped everything to make Demon Hunters seem cool and special. We were the juggernaut that couldn’t instantly close a gap, but could also never be stopped from moving.
This aesthetic of a knight charging into battle on a horse doesn’t fit the class (ironically).
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Depended entirely on the fight. There were a few fights you hardly needed to move at all, except during heavy movement phase transitions, and at least one of those had no mobs to target during it iirc with a big run, so Speed of Light had its situations to use. It wasn’t a dead talent.
It is not just “don’t like”, I HATE IT! To better explain my feelings about it, imagine a tier list of FUN from S+ to Z (S+ super fun and Z so so so terrible). Divine Steed is not even near from Z tier, is far worst than Z tier
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I would love our pre-Legion movement design back but at this point i feel small steps is the only way we will get back to it if at all.
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I assume you mean the Protection PvP talent, because otherwise the best we get is 3s (base) + 110% (conduit) = 6.3s, and the talent gives two charges, which gives two uses back-to-back once every 90s.
The DF version gives 5s, and 5 x 120% movement = +600% every 45s (assuming we have Crusader Aura up - without it it’s only +500% and worse than Speed of Light was). Speed of Light at 8 x 70% = 560% is marginally inferior, and was part of an array of options not the only choice. Both are not actually very good for Ret because they are on too long a cooldown. Less time, but more often, would be considerably more useful (but feels very unlike hopping on a warhorse), even if it was also less of a speed boost. Hence why the continuous and passive Pursuit of Justice (any version) and LAotL were the normal choices for Prot and Ret.
Whatever else, if it remains it needs to come off the GCD.
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The ironic thing about this was that it was picked the least, but complained about the least. Which is why I assume Divine Steed came into existence.
LAotL, while the favored rose color glasses Talent, and it was pretty good in PvP, was disliked by a lot of players in PvE back in MoP/WoD because it was tied to a rotational ability that required an enemy to attack.
I remember back in SoO, running through the raid 2 min behind everyone else because there was nothing to Judge.
That’s the current problem with LAotL in itself. Being tied to a rotational ability means there is no separation of when you want to use it for mobility, and when it has to be used for dps.
Additionally, PoJ and LAotL have an issue of fluctuating your movement speed in almost random intervals depending on your DPS.
For example, you would cast Judgment, stand still for 2 sec, then when you moved you had 1 sec of +45% movement speed. Just moving at the end of the buff gave you this random 1sec of increased movement speed and it was super jarring.
PoJ was the same way, you had 30% movement speed, spent HP, and dropped instantly to 15%, which felt like you were hit by an imaginary snare. There was no fluidity in movement.
I 100% agree we need something for movement, but it needs to feel smooth, fluid and within our control. We do not need a 15th Judgement modifier.
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In combat, it worked out a bit better than PoJ, but out of combat PoJ was superior, because the base +15% was better than nothing.
I remember raids and lagging behind to, and all the Rets (being a friendly guild we always had a ‘play what you like’ policy, even when fairly progressed) screaming “Don’t kill the critters! We need them for speeeed!” Not exactly new - in Wrath the cry was “We need the critters for mana!”
This is the issue today.
Back in the day, Judgement was on a short CD, and we were often effectively GCD locked, so delaying it a GCD if you were going to need a boost shortly wasn’t a big deal (it also didn’t have a billion things attached to it). Likewise PoJ wasn’t too bad, especially in WoD when TV had reach (and DS had a huge reach if you talented for that), so building HoPo and then running out a bit didn’t hurt - especially as we could build HoPo at range as well.
Today Judgement has a long CD, and has tons of stuff piled on, so you can’t afford to delay it (except when you must delay it), and nor does it have a lot of range. What I would like, given we’re probably stuck with the Pony, is Pony off GCD, Pony CD 30s with 3s duration (that’s about the same total movement boost per minute as DF’s fully talented version gives currently), Pony suppresses roots and snares for its duration or guarantees 100% movement, and a flat passive movement buff of +15 - +20% as well.
Pony’s got to come off the GCD though.
Also, seeing as we’re supposed to be slow but unstoppable, better passive/short CD defences, because if one is slow and squishy, one is actually just dead.
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Honestly, I don’t think the 3 sec buff is long enough. I think in PvP you’d just be CC’d with a spell like Dragon’s Breath, Scatter, or Gouge and the buff would be over and in PvE it has to be long enough for the “lesser skilled” players to make use of it. It would have to have a large range of usage, to fit everyone’s needs.
I hate saying this cause I really think Paladins are too similar to combat rogues, but they do have a talent that imo would be great for PoJ. A PvP Talent called Enduring Brawler.
So mobility on Paladins would just get revamped and condensed, because there’s no reason for all these talents to be stretched so thin.
Break down would be:
Paladin Class -
-
One charge of Divine Steed is baseline
- 45 second cooldown - 6 sec duration
-
One talent node for Steed of Glory
- Divine Steed gains 1 additional charge and while active you become immune to movement impairing effects, and you knock back enemies that you move through.
-
New class talent node: Pursuit of Justice
- Increases movement speed by 15% and every 3 sec you remain in combat, gain 1% additional movement speed.
Lose 1 stack each second while out of combat. Max 15 stacks.
- Increases movement speed by 15% and every 3 sec you remain in combat, gain 1% additional movement speed.
So while you are in combat, your speed gradually increases and then decreases when that combat is dropped. Preventing those sudden swings of momentum that feel like imaginary snares.
Ret Spec -
- Consecrated Ground and Sanctified Ground removed.
- Unbound Freedom added.
- Law and Order [PvP Talent] dispel protection now baked into Hand of Hindrance.
I think those changes would actually put Paladins in a pretty good spot. I still think we need Z-axis movement and more “fun abilities” (cough cough: Falling Sword) but anything more than what’s listed above could come from PvP Talents.
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Rofl good point. Compare monks baseline freedom to pallys freedom with upgraded talents in DF to increase movement speed by… wait for it… FIVE (5) PERCENT.
Unbound Freedom should be an easy talent for us to get in pve… seriously. I’d even sacrifice a bit of damage for that. Clemency would also be amazing, two uses of Blessings before they go on cooldown, why don’t they bring that back?
I know this is off-topic but I was actually thinking about them putting in PVE-only “talents.” Why should PVP only get exclusive abilities? There’s stuff they could put in PVE that would be problematic for PVP, I know this, and it’s probably a reason why they don’t bring back some abilities to the game anymore. They don’t have to call them talents, per se. They could be named differently; something that makes it clear they’re mainly for content in Dragonflight and not for rated PVP.
Maybe Dragonflight could have a memorial-like area honoring fallen heroes somewhere on the Dragon Isles. They could have this area be somehow able to channel the powers of fallen heroes for all specs, and you could experience the stories of heroes related to your specialization to gain some of their powers, but only while on the Dragon Isles?
There’s probably a lot they could do with something like this, and it would actually be less work than Class Halls were in Legion because you wouldn’t have to make an individual area for every class and you wouldn’t have to make weapon talent trees. It sucks that it’s probably too late to implement something like this for Dragonflight though…
There needs to be a certain level of cohesion between how the game plays everywhere. PVP Talents and tuning are already a massive compromise, but it is accepted since it is a game mode that is completely ignored by a majority of players.
I find the separate PvP abilities really annoying. Quite a few specs feel incomplete without them, so it’s quite tempting to turn warmode on simply to have them available. The problem is that then every time I go into a PvE instance and they get turned off, the spec feels wring and it messes with my play. The other option is to have wormode off, and have the specs feel incomplete.
Just bad design, IMO. Having half the buttons do different damage isn’t great either.
2 Likes