Things that happen at nearly the same time are not necessarily causative nor connected, just stating a fact.
Glyphs were not a part of dual spec, they were just another part of your spec. Dual spec functions without glyphs just like how glyphs function without dual spec.
People forget that dualspec does not mean that you fix healer/tank shortage… people use two dps specs too you know… stop being delusional.
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Which is also a good thing since it means more players doing arenas and other pvp.
Before dual specs there was a noticeable role shortage. After dual specs there was still a noticeable role shortage. Feywaifs definition of improvement. You wont notice the improvement but its there because Feywaif plays a hybrid yall.
Your personal anecdotes dont count.
Rumors and hearsay dont count.
I guess that depends on what you’re defining ‘improve’ as. As far as I can tell if two dudes on a server tanked/healed 4 pugs between them the week dual specs came out and never did it again you would call that an improvement.
An improvement to me would be a noticeable surge of tanks and healers entering the pug scene and staying there. Good luck proving that one with your dearth of evidence.
Hey, youre the guy with the theory. Burden of proof is all on you. Role shortages are inherent to the genre. Retail doesnt even bother with making specialization a real choice and tries to coerce people into pugging with special incentives and big shortages still exist there.
Gee whiz, its almost as if you dont know what youre talking about.
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I think this is a sus statement. Before dual spec there was a noticeable role shortage in the entire game. After dual spec there was a Great increase in Alt healers and Tanks while leveling but still a shortage of end game roles though no where near as noticeable as Pre-Dual spec. Players used Dual spec to gear their main spec, and on the rare occasion raid. They raided in the spec they wanted, but didn’t gear their off spec. This is exactly how I leveled all my alts that had a healer/tank spec. At a certain point you don’t need to do dungeons to gear. You Raid in you main spec and collect off spec pieces when they aren’t needed. That’s the way it goes.
You claim to not notice the improvement. That’s an opinion. Other people claim to have noticed an improvement. That’s their opinion.
Prove that there wasn’t a noticeable surge of tanks and healers entering the pug scene. There is a dearth of evidence. What ever data blizzard has they never release to the public. But once again:
So in other words, nothing really changed. Thanks for confirming.
Points to retail DPS still had long queues for dungeons after dual spec in Wrath. DPS still wait on tanks and healers to this day where specialization is a token thing and roles are incentivized with special loot and gifts. Its all been mentioned already in this thread. You just choose to ignore it - largely cuz youre ignorant - and heavily biased towards dual spec. Lets not pretend youre concerned with the truth here. Youre a salesman, not a historian or statistician.
Role shortages are inherent to the genre going all the way back to the pen and paper DnD days when the DM had to bot the cleric most of the time. Dual specs just give you dual specs - they dont increase pug groups or pvp participation.
The only amusing thing here is your obstinance.
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Heroics… aren’t end game. It sounds like you just want people to be queuing for dungeons 24/7… Once you are Exalted, Have the Badges, And the gear. There’s no point to continue running heroics. That has nothing to do with what spec people play. For that to happen they were need to add additional incentive for people to run dungeons. Currently there is none. So once you get what you need WHY would anyone continue running them?
Prove that they wait just as long as they did before dual spec was added. Prove that there was no change at all in the wait time. Link to that data.
Prove that you’re a historian or a statistician. Historians use footnotes that reference documents to back up their claims. Statisticians have data to back up their claims. Link to the data you use, or admit your post is just your opinion based on biased speculation.
What’s there to prove? There’s way more DPS looking for pugs than tanks and healers. Do you doubt that or something?
Besides that, you were supposed to post your evidence that refutes that fact. So far you told me you play a druid and some people on the forums said they would tank and heal pugs. And here you are asking me to prove reality to you when your “data” comes out of a cracker jack box.
/yawn
Just say you dont have the info dude, its obvious to anyone reading your posts your full of it. So just own it.
Of course there are more dps than tanks or healers looking for pugs. Just provide evidence that there weren’t more tanks and healers looking for pugs after dual spec was added.
I know what I post is my opinion based on my experience playing this game from nearly the day it was released. You think your opinions are facts. It’s hilarious.
I don’t have the info. Only blizzard has any data and they don’t release it. I’ve been clear that what I post is my opinion. Hard to see how you missed that. You don’t have the info either. Everyone knows that too. The difference is I’m smart enough to know the difference between an opinion and a fact and you aren’t.
Glyphs in wrath were directly tied to talents and futher specialized the tree, spec is short for specialization which means to concentrate or become a expert in " one particular subject or skill, dual spec is counter intuitive to class specialization and that is a fact. Once you go dual spec you no longer have set roles or class dynamic in place and your just a jack of two trades.
Of course there is. There’s 12 dps Class trees and 3 Tank class trees and 3 Healing class trees. That’s basic statistics. Then add preferred class and preferred race… It seems like you are arguing just to argue now.
The theory that dual specs would provide more pug tanks/healers and pvp participants is plausible and valid. Whether its correct or not is something else entirely.
The problem logic has with your collective theory is you are already assuming it to be correct even as it flies in the face of the empirical evidence that class/role/party games inherently suffer from class/role shortages by their very nature.
The history of this game and the genre in general say that dual specs impact would be negligible at best. That’s hardly an improvement and you lack anything other than your faith in dual specs to prove otherwise - doesnt fly.
No one has to accept anyone’s faith based theories as a fact in place of the actual facts. Just grow up and accept it.
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That’s not an actual fact. It’s just your opinion. Repeatedly claiming your opinions are facts doesn’t change an opinion into a fact. And you too lack everything but your faith that dual spec’s impact would be negligible. No one has to accept your faith when you have no actual facts. It’s my opinion that the increase in tanks and healers would have a meaningful impact on the ability of players finding groups. My experience is that it was easier for my dps alts to find groups after dual spec was added.
It’s unfortunate this topic has devolved into another for/against dual spec topic instead of discussing what I proposed, just allowing changing of talents in a rest area.
That being said, since we’re going with anecdotal experiences here, I’ll add mine. As a geared dps that still had to do dailies in the open world, I realized very quickly I would spend significantly less time overall if I only queued as a dps; I could get dailies done in queue and then the dungeons would take much less time, because at least one of the dps would be competent.
This was on a class that could tank, by the way. An instant queue meant nothing if the dungeon took 3 times as long and I still had to do dailies anyways.
Make up your mind chief.
The funny part about this is you ignore all the other things that changed with wotlk and try to claim it was all dual spec that effected the dps pug wait times.
We had a whole new class that could tank and was very overpowered when it was added, which caused a lot of people to flock to it.
The game was much more alt friendly between many of the changes to classes, talents, leveling speed, gearing speed, exc as well as the new class (again which could tank) starting at level 55 that caused more alts to be running heroics and such.
Heroics themselves were made MUCH easier than tbc heroics overall with little to no CC needed to do them.
Many of the tank and healer playstyles got easier with threat (and aoe threat) being easier for tanks, healers gaining more all around healing (example, paladins got better for aoe healing compared to tbc, still not great at it, but far better than before)
A lot of catchup mechanics in wotlk also encouraged running heroics more.
And lastly lfd was likely the biggest impact on reducing dps pug wait time to do dungeons.
But you try to point to dual spec and give it all the credit for what all the other changes did…
DPS wait times in Wrath were a borderline meme at the time even after dual specs. You’d be in queue for 45 minutes, get up for a quick bio and find out you missed the group and would have to wait 45 minutes again.