I will say. This will NEVER fix the issue with Tanking and healing of dungeons at max level, 1 year after an expansion is out because unless people are constantly making alts the flow of new characters slows, and people stop needing gear/badges from dungeons so they would not need them. So “significant” is never going to happen and it’s clown shoes to ask, because dungeons are not end game. People will use dual spec to level efficiently and to pvp/pve that’s it.
Correct, which is additional proof that it wouldn’t be as damaging to the game as the detractors claim it would be. It would raise the QoL of those folks looking to level alts, especially on low population servers significantly.
If Blizzard fixed the server imbalance issues and offered free transfers, I don’t think dual spec would even be asked for very often, except for by PvPers I suppose, but that’s a subset of a much larger group who want it now for PvE purposes.
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I asked why dual specs are deemed so needed and necessary when they are factually unnecessary and unneeded and I was told because of all the benefits they would provide to the community (amongst other “promises”) Not the individual, the entire community was undoubtedly going to benefit. Without question. You dont just get dual specs when you get the convenience of dual specs you get a better community because the addition of dual specs would spiritually lift people into helping pugs forever. Thats what dual specs add to TBC. To a point where it was going to significantly improve the experience for pugs and thus everyone. Not only that it was a fact. Read the threads.
Being skeptical as I am of such claims for good reason I asked for evidence and was told that I had to prove their unprovable claim wrong which is completely backwards. Since they cant prove their claims Im under no burden to assume that dual specs are now somehow warranted which is the whole point behind them making the claim in the first place.
So no, its not proof. Which seems you are aware of because:
So yeah, you still want dual specs whereas I dont see the need whatsoever but it would appear that we agree on this.
My sentiment exactly.
Thats not what Im doing. Thats your strawman. You guys love your strawmen. You made a claim or at least arguing in favor of those making that claim. I asked for evidence. You have zero - then blame me for your shortcomings and then assume your idiocy is my problem and somehow my fault.
Nah, youre fallacies and BS are yours, just deal with it. TBC doesnt need dual specs, the players dont need dual specs the players just want them and thats not good enough to get dual specs into TBC. Boo hoo, cry me a river.
You strawman so hard and so often Im starting to think your head is full of straw - and then I start thinking about what the scarecrow in Oz was lacking and it all makes sense.
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How is more access to leveling dungeons for Alts, not a benefit for the community?
Which is exactly when dual spec would be the most useful.
Define Evidence? You were shown people saying “I’d tank/heal if I had dual spec” even at max level what more do you need?
So you don’t see the need. But agree that people would use it for leveling and end game pvp/pve. So you don’t see the need… but you do see the benefit it would provide?
I think its far more likely that people would use them more for personal reasons than they would for the greater good. The earlier consensus for dual specs was I dont want to spend gold, I dont want to have to farm gold and travel to change specs - not I need dual specs because I feel bad for random hunters in LFG.
Call me crazy.
If people wanted to help their communities they would be doing it already instead of waiting for someone to make the game more convenient for them so they might think about tanking or healing the occasional pug which even then would probably be more self serving than it would be for the community. Any community help would be incidental.
We already agreed on this part. I said big shortages are going to exist regardless of dual specs and I was told that might be true but dual specs would have a very significant impact on pug dungeons to the point where we would all be forced to call it a major improvement.
So the evidence required to back the claim is the evidence that undoubtedly proves that most everyone who gets dual specs is going to go out and pug dungeons to the benefit of their random dps on their servers. Saying they would is not evidence. No such evidence exists. Its a personal belief, nothing more.
If its a personal belief its okay for me to think that TBC doesnt need or warrant or would benefit from dual specs. Thats all. Yet, Im wrong to be skeptical because of all the ummmm non existent evidence. Maybe you can see my issue here.
I see the potential sure. I dont see a player base capable of filling that potential so Id rather just leave TBC alone and wait for Wrath when no one can argue about dual specs inclusion.
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One thing is for sure, ALL the D-spec threads end up toxic and a mud slinging free for all. If I were a dev I wouldn’t touch dual spec with a 10 ft pole due to all the controversy surrounding it,
Here is the list again
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Here you go, every one of your points rebutted.
- Requires some level of recoding and manpower to implement
Already coded most likely, but possible - Goes against dedicated class roles and specialization.
if it was that important they wouldn’t have put it in wrath - Did not exist in any form in original expansion.
neither did any of the other changes, really dumb to bring this up - Diminishes the value of the feature as a definitive change highlighted as a wrath feature.
is this to suggest that people wouldn’t play wrath if they got dual spec in bc? Terrible argument - Talent and lvl spread is too small to warrant needing dual spec vs just rolling another toon
Oh I see, so that more gear can be disenchanted because you brought the wrong alt of the same class? - Avg player has hard enough time understanding one spec vs two
Players are too stupid to use dual spec. Except they used it in wrath just fine. Terrible argument. - Dual spec goes against the rpg aspects of the game based on cliche mideveal fantasy story structure where group role is linked to your core identity.
If this was important they wouldn’t let you change specs at all. - Players get forced out of their comfort zone due to peer pressure and ease of switching spec to suit others
Ah yes, dual spec removes players from being able to play how they want. Totally logical. Player autonomy disappears with dual spec. /s - Arena is only real pvp that requires a specialized talent build to compete, bgs, raids and dungeons can be done with just gear swaps
Now you’re trolling, please make a video of yourself tanking a raid, talented as ret while wearing prot gear - Creates more gear issues without increased storage considerations
Entirely a player problem, I have gear for 2 specs, resists for all pve raids, with no bank problems, and I don’t even have full haris pilton bags. - Mostly wanted by elitist raid loggers and casuals could care less.
Proof of this? Dual spec totally benefits the casual player - especially those looking for groups that can’t find tanks or healers - There is a thing called respec that you buy from a vendor. Purposely designed to discourage spec flipping and add consequence to thoughtless talent choice.
Sure, keep gold cost in. The travel and UI components are not beneficial in any way to the game
That’s all hearsay as you define it. You can’t prove any of it so it has no place in this discussion.
More hearsay. You can’t prove it so I can simply reject it. In fact this whole post is nothing but hearsay, as you define it, so none of it is worth responding to
If you’re going to snip a quote to make it sound like I so limited the definition, at least have enough wherewithal to remove the dangling comma. Sloppy attempts at lying are almost as bad as lies themselves.
Literally not. If I asked a witness whether or not they encountered anyone talking about how they’d use dual spec on these forums and you objected for hearsay, you’d get a stern glare from the judge and be told to state your grounds (ie what rule) and your support.
Such a frivolous objection just to stop the flow of testimony gets you contempt charges, just sayin’
Hearsay is literally an out-of-court statement offered in court for the truth of the matter asserted. I can ask Feywaif all I want about her own impressions, reactions, and feelings on the matter of what other people have written. At no point are my questions asking whether specific individuals are telling the TRUTH or being ACCURATE in any way.
This concept screws a lot of folks out of a solid B in Criminal Procedure (you’re graded on a curve, limited number of A’s, B’s, etc) because they can’t pick through the nuance and just think simply, as you do, and as most laymen do.
People in this thread have stated how they’d utilize dual spec. I can offer my own statement that I’d do more Arenas since I’d prefer to PvP as Resto over Feral.
I’m not sure why you’re hung up on things that you can’t prove or substantiate, like “warrant”, but then again I muted you entirely for a reason. I just find it funny you’re here trying to play layman lawyer and doing a terrible job at it.
No one cares then. Don’t use technical terms for nontechnical reasons just to spruce up your vocabulary, it just makes you look foolish.
You might as well say “cat” when you refer to a dog and then act smug when we tell you that cats don’t bark.
Anyway, back on mute for you. I suggest others do the same.
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- Not particularly, as Dual Spec is an old feature, and this isn’t a defeater since other changes require “some level” of recoding and manpower.
- This is opinion, and a poorly supported one at that, primarily because we can already respec right now. For 50g I can become a Resto Druid and I can freely swap my gear.
- TBCC is not NoChanges, nor was it advertised as such, nor has it been maintained as such.
- Dual Spec wasn’t a featured thing for Wrath, it came out delayed in fact. This being said, most of the changes we’ve gotten are pulled from Wrath or later so this is fairly irrelevant.
- This is hilariously false. We still have a variety of variations in specs, so much so that even WCL recognizes a variety of specs and roles for parsing purposes. Additionally, rolling a new character doesn’t do anything for what I do with an existing character. My Paladin is cool and does a lot of amazing things, but she isn’t my Druid.
- Irrelevant. Any player mystified by current specs isn’t going to become MORE mystified by… current specs. We aren’t getting new specs, we’re getting easier access to the same specs.
- This is entirely opinion and doesn’t even align with how WoW has run since its inception. Druids aren’t just support healers, we can fulfill every role. Regardless, even had WoW restricted Druids to be just weird supports, it still wouldn’t diminish the RPG element of being a support if I could freely swap between healing and tanking support roles.
- This already happens right now and wouldn’t meaningfully increase with DS added. Sweaty guilds would still force compliance as they do right now, and non-sweaty guilds wouldn’t care as they do right now.
- What can be done has nothing to do with what people want to do. Also this isn’t a defeater to the idea at all, this is just you being grumpy.
- Only if people want to engage with two specs and collect the gear. I already have a full set of Balance and Resto gear that I maintain and we don’t even have DS. This isn’t a problem.
- Sheer opinion and irrelevant anyway.
- This is precisely the reason why Blizzard gave us DS, because the old methods didn’t do anything that Blizzard wanted. The ramping costs were supposed to prevent frivolous respec at any time of day, but not discourage people from trying out new roles from time to time. Instead all we got were a vast majority of people locking into a spec and never touching the trainer ever again, and a small handful of people that just dumped gold with no regard to such constraints. GC openly admitted in Wrath that it was a failed and broken system.
So you’re 12 for 12 and lost every one. In fact, your 12th reason was exactly why Blizzard stated they added DS into the game.
If this is all you have, you don’t have a counter argument.
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Dual Spec would be cool in TBC. Way cool.
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I dont have to quote the whole thing. You said ‘rumor’ wasnt a synonym for hearsay.
hear·say
/ˈhirˌsā/
information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate; rumor.
Well would you look at that.
You can drum up the semantics all you want. You dont want to see it as hearsay because it doesnt meet your very butt retentive criteria thats fine by me. Its a valid criticism whether Fasc agrees or not. I could have just as easily said bull pucky and you would be here arguing about what animal feces is more egregious. Whatever terminology you want to use, nothing changes. He used other peoples unbacked testimony as fool proof evidence that dual specs will unequivocally produce a significant amount of pug healers and tanks. He cant prove that and neither can you.
How this guarantees plenty of tank and healing options for all your realms unguilded pug enhancement shaman is still a mystery until proven otherwise.
People can say whatever they want, thats not proof theyre gonna do it. One would think with all your posturing you coulda figured that out on your own. All you can say is they said they would do it not that theyre actually gonna do it. Big freakin difference. It doesn’t lend itself to the claim being made so contrarian commentary from openly biased forum posters is of little consequence to the discussion. Its not evidence of anything related to the unbacked claim being called a fact.
I can definitely prove there’s no justification for dual specs. Like all I gotta do is point out you have no justification for them, never provided any save your very personal feelings and beliefs and how those feelings and beliefs dont trump the very real fact that TBCC is perfectly playable without them as evidenced by the very servers you log into to play TBCC.
Because youre overly sensitive when hearing arguments that dont immediately agree with you? Thats my guess. But you flatter me sir. Knowing that basic facts and simple logic are enough to trigger you into not engaging with me makes my day. Mission accomplished. I earnestly hope others follow suit.
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Ahh, yes, dismissal and deflection. The most popular form of intellectual debate, I listed considerations that show a disruptive side of this particular suggested change that was actually a temporary feature that did not stand up to the test of time, as far as my list goes, thanks for the response. I’m glad to hear you acknowledge them as counterpoints even if you’re trying to challenge facts with feelings.
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Didn’t know we were in a competition, OK so what did you win??
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Are you saying that disagreement is dismissal? No. I responded to every one of your “points” and pointed out that they are terribly flimsy and don’t pass even the most basic logic tests.
You have no actual points that were deflected, they were directly addressed explaining why they’re bad takes.
If you wanted to respond to my responses, that would be welcome. But - I think we both know you won’t, because you don’t have the capacity.
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You dont need 12 points. Just one. Original TBC didnt have dual specs and by virtue of this it stands to perfect reason that its classic release doesn’t need them. There is simply no good reason they should be included.
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A mute on you! Yay!
Oh the point that blizzard has explicitly said they don’t care about in regards to TBC Classic, solid argument.
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Where has Blizz explicitly stated they dont care about the past or authenticity and the door is wide open for dual specs in TBC?
If Im wrong, where are dual specs?