Your first paragraph assumes they’re going to do your second paragraph, and to me essentially turning WoG into Death Strike (since it won’t heal enough on other players for it to be worth using on them) is like saying you wish Blessing of Sanctuary could no longer be cast on other players so that it can be changed to Berser—err, sorry, Zealot’s Rage that breaks us out of fears. Your entitled to your opinion ofc, but I think what makes paladin paladin is having strong utility that can be cast on other players.
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For sure, and the third part of my post is where I believe our offhealing for allies is going to go in a healthier direction.
I don’t think easily generated instant cast healing like WoG was at its strongest is healthy for the class. Selfless Healer FoL with the new buffs (with or without Light’s Celerity as needed) is likely in a better spot for us to use as party support compared to HH WoGs in both forms of content.
And to your point of WoG essentially turning into Death Strike, imo this is the best state of self healing for hybrids across the board. They can heal themselves sufficiently as needed while costing themselves damage (holy power/runic power/maelstrom stacks), but are not able to heal a party which creates that “degenerate” no healer keystone meta.
There’s a huge condition for those no healer keystone and it’s not meta.
Only reason why it can work, is that all 5 members of the team is exceptional good. Something most of us won’t be able to relate, most of us are honestly ‘‘just playing’’.
Not that it’s wrong.
Additionally it’s still not the top keys that’s done this way, those pushing extreme keys still have healers, still need to adjust stats and talents to fit the key and still need to wipe endlessly and prog while they try to get that +X down. There are keys where key proggers wipe endless on the very 1st big pull on purpose just to try to perfect it to near zero mistakes and it’s like 100+ wipes, there’s more of such progging toward the other chockpoint of the key.
WoG is instant but it already cost dmg and mana. FOL is gonna ALSO cost dmg and mana even if it’s tuned well becuz for that 1.x sec, you are not doing anything else. The difference is now u have to WAIT for the spell cast which may or may not be the crucial factor in saving someone who’s near death. Additionally without considering WoG, if the intended style of the support healer remains then one will never take Light’s Celerity either.
So frankly there’s no basis of a no healer ‘‘meta’’. It’s at best a meme comp for really good players. Those MDI healerless runs are built based on hundreds and hundreds of repeated pulls, who else is realistically gonna do that for their weekly 10s or even 12s?
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So where is the WoG buff to self to counteract the nerf to others?
Because so far it’s only a nerf here, the nerf being WoG costs gone up 50% even on self, not to mention the HH change to not work on others, with no mention of future changes to the goal/want you mentioned.
Lmfao
“The price of living is going up and heres how thats a good thing!”"
Just leave
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I think FoL will still be a little bit weak though. Maybe if Light’s Celerity were tweaked to have a larger bonus at the cost of a longer CD.
I don’t think that’s degenerate, just like I don’t think double DPS in 2s or even triple DPS in 3s is degenerate. Healerless comps whether in PvE or PvP have never seriously threatened the healing role because they’re uncommon, usually more skillful, and always a step below standard comps. But that doesn’t stop Blizzard from rooting them out as if they were degenerate.
But I get what you’re saying and won’t argue you to death. 
Btw, Mathalt noted earlier that Rep and BL now have a damage threshold. I just wanted to point out that a lot of spells are getting this treatment including Poly and Blind.
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I’m asserting that our active healing kit has been buffed at minimum to the point where other hybrid specs currently are in PvP (Druids/Shaman/Monks/Priests/etc spam casting their cast time heals). This is something that has been sorely undertuned for Ret for a long time in both forms of content but especially in PvP where other hybrids get almost double the health from their casted heals vs us.
In its entirety, taking the talent point from the outright killed SotC talent and putting it into Selfless Healer will result in 65% stronger FoLs (or 105% stronger FoLs when used on friends) before factoring in Light’s Celerity. I believe that the value of Light’s Celerity will be much higher in both forms of content compared to Guided Prayer, but especially so in PvP. Especially since we have holes in our rotation to spend an occasional GCD on Light’s Celerity’d FoL.
I’d prefer to see hybrids have to risk getting locked out on a spell to heal their friends and save emergency heals that cost them damage (HP/RP/Maelstrom Weapon) for themselves. Maybe I’m fried, I just don’t like spammable instant cast healing spells out of hybrids.
?
My fury warrior can now do well over double the self healing that any ret can do. So lame.
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Hybrid healing is being gutted across the board, and the reason is healerless runs are starting to crop up more frequently again. Ret is particularly egregious. There are logs of runs in which the Ret Paladin is sustain several hundred thousand HPS for the entire run.
This is an exaggeration. The highest HPS logs across every M+ dungeon never reach 300k (except for a few of zephyr’s runs where they go no-healer and he’s about 75-100k above the typical ret healing numbers), and his overall DPS was <700k as a result). Healerless runs exist just like monk tanks exist–no one’s expecting brewmaster nerfs.
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I’m not doubting your word of course, but I find this hard to believe. I’d have to see videos of this for proof of life.
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No healer runs are obviously the ones I was talking about.
Problem is that with the way M+ works right now, even 100k hps coming from a dps is likely too much. 4 dps all doing ~200k hps gets very close to the output of a healer. While doing substantially more dps. The difference is of course that a healer run is much safer.
Healers relative power compared to tanks and dps is absurdly low, even after all the buffs they have gotten throughout the season. Maybe the lowest in the entire history of the game. But I am not willing to go that far without first looking into it.
But at least when comparing DF S1 to TWW S1. Healers relative power is about half of what it was back then. And people complained about healers being weak at the time too.
Can’t provide any video footage. But here is a log of a Ret doing 277k sustained healing (spiking up to 500k) throughout a +14 Ara-Kara - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/hraM7wD4RtvgNcyF?fight=22&type=healing
And yet, that’s still less healing than a warrior. Those no-healer runs with rets doing 350k sustained are doing around 700k DPS. Or you could bring a healer and do 600k DPS and 1 mil healing sustained.
Self healing is different from aoe healing you absolute vegetable of a person. Of course warrior is going to heal more when they’re own hp is yo-yoing
Idk where this idea of “warrior has more hps thusits better than paladin” came from, but it’s such an annoying and crooked take that it boggles the mind that it’s getting this much traction.
It doesn’t take a genius to see that warriors are dying the most in key and raid statistics and them having gigA hps just tells me they’re squishy as hell
I normally do 150k with almost no active healing, or 200k if the healer is struggling or people are standing in the fire. I would have said 277k is exaggerated, especially with only 6 WoGs, but there it is.
I enjoy the power of doing 150-200k hps, but it is too high for passive healing. There’s no skill involved in it, and it annoys me because Ret has active healing abilities that should be worth using. It’s fine for Fury to have a lot of passive healing because their kit and survivability are built around it, and it’s not group utility.
So that brings us back to the Healing Hands nerf. I sincerely doubt the FoL buff will compensate for it, and even if it did, what’s the point of being able to cast WoG on allies when it won’t heal enough for it to be worth the holy power and gcd cost? I don’t like when Blizz booby-traps abilities or talents, but boy does Ret have a lot of this now.
Maybe baseline WoG should only be self-cast, Holy gets a freebie passive that lets it be cast on allies, Prot can talent into casting it on allies via Hand of the Protector, and Ret can’t ever cast in on allies but instead gets a turbo-charged FoL (stronger than the proposed buff). This isn’t my preferred design, but I’d rather the devs double down on their design than go about it half-heartedly. So long as WoG can be cast on others, even if it sucks, Ret will be designed and balanced around that fact.
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Which is the point of passive healing.
And therein lies the trick. They tend to suck and aren’t worth using, imho. Which is why I love our passive healing for our self and others.
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I love passive healing too, especially when it’s trickling off on others but passive healing loses a lot of value as the difficulty of content increases and it’s where WoG gains a lot more weight. Passive healing won’t contribute enough healing to get you from 10-100% quick enough to survive the next AoE surge from the boss in a 10-12 Mythic+ or a Mythic raid but a WoG crit is a different story.
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I’m not too sure about that.
For example, when I get to the second boss in Dawnbreaker and he’s doing his Shadowy Decay aoe, I make sure I’m next to him with to take advantage of Seal of the Crusader with SoV activated.
Works wonders.
Won’t be working any wonders when it gets slapped with its 50% nerf.
We’ve spent a long time without passive self-sustain healing and it’s ridiculous that it’s being nerfed to be negligible talent.
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100% agreed. No argument at all.
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