What would you call a system that gives all power to 1 person? is that a democracy then?
A republic.
The raid leader/loot master is only the loot master as long as they have the support of the raiders.
Supreme executive power derives from a mandate of the masses, not some farcical aquatic ceremony.
3 Likes
I’ve been in many guilds where officers are decided by vote, so yes, it can be.
Also, the power of “dictatorship” exist even with Personal Loot. You can get kicked out of raid & guild at any moment by GM or Raid Leader. No Loot for you.
(aka every virtual player-made community ever)
But nobody does this because guild only exists with consent of members, huh deja vu
1 Like
Maybe you only post things you hear from others, but I don’t need to ask any one - I played in Vanilla. I know from years of playing under the yoke of the corrupt ML system.
Even when ML was optional, it was the default as far as guild raids in harder content. I joined Master Loot Guilds because there weren’t Personal Loot Guilds doing harder content - not because I loved Master Loot.
I suffered through Master Loot, kind of like you might suffer through someone with an annoying voice on Discord, or someone with an ugly transmog. A part of the raiding. At least Blizzard is in control of the annoyances ML brings.
Even if a Trial is OK with ML with a detailed Loot System, they can be lied to. The ML Group being able to change their rules on the fly, essentially lying to trials about what the loot rules will be. And by the time trials find out, they may have wasted a week or two worth of raid lock outs.
The current system protects trials from that.
Have you ever actually trialed for a CE guild?
2 Likes
No it doesn’t because you can get kicked from Any raid group, at any time, for any reason by Raid Leader or GM. You can get kicked before 1st 2nd or last boss. No loot for you.
You are raising a point inheritent in Player made virtual communities. They can only be lead by 1 person and that 1 person can in theory remove you at will
You should ask yourself why most guilds tend to use master loot (hint: meritocracy)
It’s not waffling to point out a stupid argument has already been refuted. You obviously don’t know what “waffling” means in this context.
I don’t need to “add my own thoughts”, when my own thought is what I’ve ALREADY STATED (twice now): in that, the very first response SOUNDLY refutes that absolute stupidity of the initial argument.
What you’re suggesting is similar to people who makes NEW posts… for ones that already exist. It’s not necessary, just post in the already existing thread. I don’t need to say what’s already been said, I just have to lend support to the already existing argument.
The fact you try and continue this debate proves you’re in WAYYYYYY over your head. You’re using terms you don’t understand, to back up points that never made sense THE MOMENT THEY WERE POSTED.
Learn when to admit you’re wrong.
Even under your example, being kicked before a boss wouldn’t loot lock you. If you are not even allowed to participate in the kill in the first place with that group - you can still find another group for the boss.
However with Master Loot, they can drag you along through the kill and then pull loot shenanigans - and once that happens, you are loot locked, and lost a week of progress due to the whims of others.
This right here is absolutely THE most telling sentence anyone who is against Master Loot could have expressed. Notice how the reality of the system doesn’t matter because their own anecdotal evidence runs counter to said reality? There’s a reason for that.
In normal/heroic. Mythic is still instance ID.
Because you’re both cherry picking facts. HOWEVER…
As anyone that’s dealt with Master Looter knows: out of 17 years and MILLIONS of interactions, let’s say there were (sic) 100 “honest” uses of ML.
Every sane, rational person sees the flaw of ML, is glad it went away, and wants it to stay away.
People like you hyper-focus on the undeniable fact that ML CAN be used properly!!!
The thing is: YOU’RE BOTH RIGHT!!!
I’m not denying that ML CAN be used properly.
It’s just… we have an overabundance of evidence that it ALMOST ALWAYS gets abused. There are simply too few GOOD uses of it, to outweigh the absolute ridiculous rate at which it is abused.
What did Ion call it in his interview… “DEGENERATE GAMEPLAY.”
So you, and others, think about that for a second. You are trying to defend DEGENERATE GAMEPLAY.
Well… some of us aren’t.
4 Likes
That Raid Lockout asks you before you zone in, if you weren’t with that group to begin with. Which is more a Pug issue - especially since most of the CE Folks here talk about bringing Trials to the earlier bosses.
I get your point. For example :
I remember instances where we invited a trial because someone was going to be late, but they ended up being on time, so the Trial had to sit after they already accepted the lockout. That is an honest issue - and the way a Trial takes it can be part of the assessment.
The lock out issues especially among trials are often more good natured or accidental. Ive seen them happen. The issues from Master Loot are not.
These weird comparisons are unnecessary.
Just enable a toggle for personal or master loot in a raid, give two or three prompt windows that get players to confirm they understand the risks of master loot.
After that, they have zero, zero, zero ground to whine or complain or anything.
I always thought it was weird that they got rid of ML entirely, when so many guilds had interesting systems for community building within guilds. I knew guilds that offered ‘loot points’ based on anything from raid participation, to helping new players, to re-stocking the guild bank.
Granted, I never played with things like DKP because I don’t raid, but the idea seemed neat.
And the way PL works now too means guilds that want ML can’t work around it by just trading gear, because if that gear is an upgrade for the receiving player, they can’t trade it, even if by their “loot rules”, it should go to someone else.
Hit the nail on the head.
1 Like
Unrestricted PL please 
Just remove the trade restrictions, Solved…
You clearly don’t grasp the concept of credibility, I encourage you to crack open a dictionary.
I can tell you in that instance the trial is well within their right to find another team, Because that at the base level is signifigantly disorganized and then loot locking them to that raid for an entire week where they have to now sit there with a thumb up their heiny because of a logistical screw up?
Yeah I’d of found a new team for that one, Trialing goes both ways.
some people cant deal with freedom and want to be told what to do.
Just as some people, when given “total” freedom, do horrible things.
That’s why “freedom” … still comes with RULES. Even our blessed First Amendment doesn’t give you the “freedom” to say whatever you want. Despite what many morons believe, you DO NOT have the right to say whatever you want.
There are rules that go with that freedom… because people ABUSE it.
Sound familiar?
You confuse “some people want to be told what to do” with the fact that some idiots NEED to be told what to do.