If they made any change at all, it should be to make it MORE expensive to change specs. There is more gold in the classic game than in Vanilla. The cost was intended to be prohibitive. Inflation has made it way too cheap because the fixed cost hasn’t kept pace. The idea was you picked a spec and pretty much lived with it until such time that you decided to change your style to experience a different aspect of the game.
When it was first introduced we did have to visit the trainer to swap.
I think dual-spec isn’t entirely awful. You can have 1 spec for PVE and another for PVP or raiding. I remember dual-spec more as a relief than anything. It also could save raid nite or help down a boss, thus actually helping the social aspect. (Madskkils currently banned from computer by his mom? Belfgurl can just change specs and cover. Beating your head against a boss and it’s almost midnight? The druid healer can try taking over tank spot etc.) Insta-groups of any kind are a serious detriment to the game though. Make friends or ask in chat.
3 Likes
Here is my thought on Dualspec in TBC.
Honestly I don’t care if they add it or not, but I would want limitations added to it weather it be a cool down on how often you can use it, or if you have to be in a certain area. What I don’t want to happen is people being able to change specs mid raid. That would change the meta of raiding which I do not want. If you were forcing me to pick on adding Dualspec or not, I would say no. With dailies being added in TBC and the amount of gold people are going to be earning. Paying 50g to respec isn’t going to be that big of a deal.
Now Dungeon Finder I do not wanted added at all. It would allow people farming dungeons for either XP or Rep to just sit in town and que. IMO Dungeon Finder was the one thing that was added that hurt WoW the most, and while I loved playing Wrath. The addition of Dungeon Finder in Wrath has always stained it for me.
2 Likes
the fact this post exists speaks of why shadowlands is Sooo GOOD
3 Likes
Wrath of the lich king was perfectly fine for well over a year without the patch 3.3 random dungeon finder. Players were running dungeons, forming guilds, raiding and were just fine without the rdf.
I submit that we don’t need the patch 3.3 random dungeon finder in the future wrath classic, or added to any existing era of the classic games.
7 Likes
I really wouldnt care about dual spec if it was added.
The only way dungeon finder should be added is if it found the player a group.
But the player has to travel to the dungeon and enter it. No queuing from
a city and just sitting there.
1 Like
So, here’s the thing…
I’m against Dungeon Finder, but I’m not opposed to an LFG Listing (those are two VERY different things).
I’m (also) not against Duel-Specs, but I want it implemented a certain way:
That’s my opinion. Take it or leave it 
But they don’t really play it, because the content is dumbed down so much so as to make it fail-proof. It’s story-mode.
Convenience is not always a good thing. The whole point of an MMORPG is to make things inconvenient for you. To give you something to do, to give you obstacles to overcome. Forcing people to travel out into the world makes people participate in that world, which makes that world come alive. Otherwise players would just sit at the mailbox the whole time and stare at their queue.
But I think a lot of people just get bored and quit after the dungeon finder loot has been farmed, because they feel like they’ve already seen and done the content, even though they haven’t really seen and done the content except in story-mode. This provides a disincentive for people to git gud and do the more appropriately challenging versions, IMO.
I think speaking and teamwork increases as the content gets more challenging and there is need for coordination. Classic vanilla dungeons were pretty easy, at least in part because we got a late patch. I’m hoping Heroic dungeons in TBC released in an earlier patch form will have more of a pulse, and thus require more teamwork and coordination.
In my limited experience in retail post-Cata, especially in LFR, it’s like Lord of the Flies. A mob of bratty kids cussing and insulting each other. I have no doubt that, if they could, they would murder Piggy and steal his glasses. It’s pretty brutal.
They remember if someone was a dick. And they can post it on LFG channel for everyone to see. And everyone can see the guild name and report poor behavior to their guild leader. And players know this, and they absolutely do factor it in when deciding whether to be an a$$ or not. Because once you get a bad reputation, it’s pretty much over for that toon. Nobody will want to group with you.
True, but this comes at the expense of the server community, i.e. people meeting people and making new friends on their server, which is what the original designers wanted to encourage. Lifetime friendships were created by this design. How many new lifetime friendships have been created by cross realm LFR and dungeon finder? Probably almost none, because once the run is over you never see that person again.
1 Like
You’re just not into older mmos and that’s fine. But a lot of people are and this games for them.
2 Likes
Having queueable content doesn’t mean all the content is easy. Cata heroics were considered hard when it first came out for example. All the static difficulty content dungeons and even raids eventually become easy as you out-gear them.
You can also have harder versions of the dungeons, whether it’s challenge modes or additional difficulties that drop gear.
No, the entire point of an MMO is to have fun.
Frequently stated but always wrong. Running to a dungeon doesn’t make you participate in anything, it just delays the start of the dungeon. It adds nothing of value to the game or anyone’s experience of it.
In many expansions people interested in hard content hardly do the dungeon finder content much at all past the first week and quickly move on to harder content.
There are a lot of factors in why people leave, and the dungeon finder is never a dominant factor. Look at how few people stayed around in WoD and BfA, but for some reason, Legion was a lot more popular and kept people around + coming back despite numerous issues like Legendary RNG. Now SL is another expansion that was quickly abandoned, but it has little to nothing to do with queued content. Too many chores and not enough fun. Bad class design. Inaccessible PvP/too large a power gap etc.
Some LFR’s were faceroll and had minimal interaction. Some LFRs were actually harder than the normal version of the raid and certain bosses resulted in quite a few wipes before downing it. Some people would say mildly toxic things in chat but be mostly ignored. The real problem was just that after every wipe several people left and you’d have to wait for replacements so it just took awhile if you really wanted to finish.
It doesn’t really. It’s just two different options. Nothing stops you or even discourages you from participating in both.
The construct of having people on different servers was a necessity of tech limitations. If Vanilla WoW devs had the tech we have now, there wouldn’t even be separate servers. There would have been 3 modes and sharding. We never would have had dead servers or server mergers.
Cross realm organized groups result in people adding people to their friends list probably as often as it does in single-server groups. I have random people on my friends list that I was in one xrealm pug raid with in Legion for example.
Automated queue content probably a lot less so, but people being there just to do the content and not make friends isn’t a bad thing. If that’s all they want to do that’s fine. It’s not Blizzard’s job to try to force everyone to be besties.
Dual Spec, 0 issue.
Dungeon Finder I have an issue with.
Group Finder in TBC will be good enough plus you have summoning stones so you won’t need Dungeon Finder.
LFR N’Zoth was harder than heroic N’Zoth… Easily saw 10 Determination stacks and bodies before the kill. (But when you are a completionist and want your alts to complete that raid quest because of OCD gotta bare through LFR N’Zoth).
Never going to understand why people keep asking for things that aren’t going to happen, we’re not talking about righting a wrong like paladins of different factions have a better DPS or tanking seal, or preventing a stupid meta where entire raids have to be leatherworkers, we’re talking about entitled morons who are too lazy to just respec in a game where 50g is even less meaningful than in classic, or even to walk to a dungeon where you can fly at flight master speeds, lol.
They were considered hard when they first came out. They were then nerfed because people in queues wanted them to be easier. Cata heroics prove the point that the queue eliminates difficult content.
No it wasn’t. It just objectively wasn’t. No LFR version of a raid has been harder than a normal or heroic version. The players you’re playing with may be worse but the fight isn’t harder. If you took a group that could clear Heroic N’zoth they would wipe the floor with LFR N’zoth.
I’m pretty sure cata dungeons/heroics being hard is why most didn’t like it, other than the last raid and turning the old world into a theme park ride mose of the time, Cata was a good expansion, but proved wrath babies were just that, babies.
I don’t think cata heroics were nerfed to the point of being faceroll if you didn’t out-gear them. They’re still not comparable to how easy heroics are now that we have mythic difficulty and M+ for the harder versions (or challenge modes in MoP).
People still wipe on some of the Cata heroic fights in Cata timewalking week. They’re not really that hard compared to what they were in actual cata, but you can’t ignore the mechanics on some of the fights where mechanics mean very little in a lot of modern heroics.
Having easier queueable content and harder versions that aren’t just means more people get to see the content. Having queueable content absolutely does not “eliminate” difficult content. Edit: I also think you could have difficult queueable content as well, but they tend to just leave that for the other difficulties now. In cata we didn’t have end-game 5 man content.
I don’t expect them to do it in TBC classic because there weren’t multiple difficulties in TBC (edit: I mean end-game difficulties), but in general, people who think dungeon finder/LFR ruined the game or got rid of difficulty in WoW are just completely wrong.
I think you’re lumping together two completely different groups of players here.
Dual spec I don’t really care either way, if it’s in, cool, if not, whatever. It has its benefits and its downsides.
DF is toxic trash, for so many reasons other posters have outlined in this thread. Personally I won’t be playing any “classic” release after wotlk and the DF is a major part of that.
If Blizzard was smart about #somechanges they would not include the DF at all for wotlk or cata. A no DF cata, I might be tempted to give it a go.
PS for the record I am really excited about the LFG tool coming in TBC. I always preferred that over the LFG channel, which has always been filled with spam and is no more so than classic today. But imo, this tool is enough. Auto queue with players who youll never meet again because theyre on an entirely different server removes any chances you have of forming relationships with other players. My friends list is packed with cool people I met in dungeons in classic, and I continue to run things with them all the time. With the DF I would have none of that, because they’d all be on different servers and no one wants to do anything but rush their loot crate at the end of the dungeon anyway, instead of doing quests and fun side bosses.
5 Likes
That’s not the whole story. The Cata dungeons were tuned to require CC again because everyone said AoE all the time was boring. The problem was the WotLK bads who never learned how to maintain a sheep or shackle clogged the forums with their wailing and gnashing of teeth. Instead of sticking to their guns and giving us some well-tuned content, Blizzard just caved.
1 Like
Quality of life isn’t always a good thing. It leaves things feeling unrewarding and unengaging most of the time. It also makes you even lazier.
1 Like