So what you’re saying is that because some changes harmed TBC classics authenticity, we should allow further changes? That doesn’t make much sense.
That’s like if you spill a drop of red wine on the carpet. Would you then proceed to pour the whole bottle on the carpet because “it’s already happened” and the carpet is already ruined?
The existence of bots shouldn’t really have any impact on this discussion. We DO need a gold sink.
I have yet to see an explanation of the massive abuse possible with dual spec.
My primary objection to dual-spec is divine spirit. The rest includes issues involving loot distribution, pressure on people who don’t want to tank to tank(or heal), and possibly a slight reduction in difficulty on certain bosses.
The main reason I want dual-spec, is that raids generally require 12% to be tanks, while 5-mans require 20% to be tanks. This disparity necessitates a tank shortage. And is fundamentally a flaw in the game design.
The style of argument can be abused, I didn’t say “dual spec can be abused”.
Again, if you don’t like dual-spec-less expansions, you don’t have to play TBCC. It’s a free world, man.
And if dual spec gets added you don’t have to play TBCC either, you could just go back to vanilla classic.
Right?
Yeah, and this could be a really watershed moment in the debate if it meant that you would stop begging for it all over the forums assuming I agreed to this proposition.
We all know you won’t stop though…so 'round and 'round we go.
They’re both equally stupid statements, so don’t make it first if you don’t like the response 
So we adding DKs now?
Yes, if I have to wait an hour and a half for a tank, then it’s probably not going to happen.
Read above for the numbers, again, in a situation that favors dual spec, it still looks bad.
If I don’t have a tank after the queue time for a WSG twice over, then like those bgs, it aint happening, and that’s just the facts of the case. Almost no one is thinking “Damn, I wish I could do that H Bot but I lack dual spec and the entire tank set of gear so I guess I can’t join since they’re full on dps.”
Honestly we all should, dual spec or not.
That is a widely different subject that focuses on pvp population which is independent of overall population. A more adept analogy would be “You have a group formed but have to wait 45 minutes to go do Gruuls because not enough of the OTHER faction is playing across ALL SERVERS FOR YOUR COASTLINE”, not “There isn’t enough tanks for this very specific instance I want to do.”
Class design and pve roles are not the same as one faction literally quitting half of the end game content.
Oh yes the “estimated time is 20 minute” while I’m at 46 minutes.
And if I pour a bottle of water on a forest fire I technically fought the fire.
Period.
It wouldn’t.
God man, you’re making this hard. You’re intentionally living in an echo chamber or trolling. We do know. We have seen dual spec in action from LK to patch 7.0.3, and we have seen LFD in action from like 3.3 to current day.
When both dual spec and LFD were around, we still had a tank shortage.
When dual spec, LFD, and consistent incentives, it was at it’s “best” but still argued to be a tank shortage. It has never been as good since, and it’s still not good.
Of course I know, he’s me.
In all serious, you are who you’re around. If you join sweats, you become a sweat, or you don’t. There are plenty of people who know how easy this game actually is at it’s core, and don’t care if you’re dual pve spec’d if dual spec were to come out.
Of course everyone with a tank/heal dual spec would not instantly switch to it for whatever. But you know what guarantees no DPS will? Not having a tank/heal spec at all.
It’s the funniest thing, coming back to wow for classic and seeing all these people get super sweaty over solved content. It’s cute, but also strange ;p
No, I was using it as an example.
Alright.
It is a different subject but the principle is the same. If people can’t play the game, they quit playing. At best you could argue that it was unfair because it only affected horde. But you could also argue that the tank shortage only affects people who aren’t tanks.
In fact, I rarely run dungeons on my DPS classes because 90% of groups are filled on DPS within the first 5 seconds of the LFM. If you’re not actively watching world chat and whisper immediately, you don’t get in.
We don’t know the exact effect of dual-spec on TBC because TBC has never had dual-spec.
We do know that there were still queues in WOTLK after they added dual-spec. We don’t know what those queues would have been without dual-spec.
I’d take a person decked out in healing or Tanking gear but not in the right spec in a heroic over someone correctly specced with completely wrongly itemised gear any day of the week. The gear has greater impact on the result than the spec.
Obviously you want both. But for dual spec to alleviate Tank and Healer wait times rather than just give people an additiional DPS or PVP spec people need the gear to go with it.
So, maybe we should go retail on this and make stats change on your gear when you switch roles? Lol no - lets not.
But that change to gear stats was made precisely because specialisation flexibility in and of itself did very little to solve the problem of Tank and Healer shortages. Dual spec is known to be not all that effective at solving the stated problem in and of itself.
Have you ever tried to tank as a healing spec in TBC? You can tank on a warrior as DPS spec if you are overgeared, but as a druid, unless you are feral you produce no threat.
How effective was it? 5%? 20%? 50%?
Not as a Warrior no ;p
But a Pally mate of mine has. It’s messy for sure, but his Tank set is excellent and he can make it work. I’ve done passable dps in heroics Tank spec too (our guild has a Tank surplus and I’m cheap so I sometimes sneek into groups as “dps” while specced prot - it’s my dirty secret. The gear switch has more impact on the numbers than spec.
What doesn’t work is trying to heal a heroic without any +healing gear or mana.
Dude I’ve been trying.
Bless Unleashed didn’t grab me.
Waiting on Lost Ark which still has no release date despite them saying it’s definitely fall, waiting on any news for Blue Protocol International. PSO2NGS massively disappointing amount of content (that is to say, none at all).
*sigh…I already played FFXIV and am kinda burnt out on it but that seems to be where everyone is poppin’ over to lately…
Oh and to make matters more dreary, both New World and Ashes of Creation look like boring “hyper-realistic” bog-standard mmo tripe to me…
Literally all you’ve got is consecration. You lose insane amounts of health, threat, and mitigation. You’ll never hold threat on anything, and righteous defense has a pretty long CD.
Sounds terrible.
It’s bad but if you’re super well geared for tanking it is doable.
Main point is, spec is not the only thing people need. Gear is arguably more important. A lot of people don’t bother collecting off sets or gemming and enchanting it when they do. Giving them a dual spec won’t make them decent tanks or healers.
If you seriously think that a pve problem of class design is the same as a player made problem that involves one faction quite literally not playing at all is the same thing, then this conversation is already done.
Go read the thread titled “Don’t bring HvH back” or whatever it’s name is if you want my hours long worth of context as to why you’re wrong on this topic.
“But but what if LFD DIDNT have dual spec.”
LFD put in way more effort to solve the instance tank problem than dual spec ever could, as a player gains nothing new from being a tank, whereas LFD provided benefits and rewards for all levels, for normal and heroic, and made the ease to accessing the content painfully easy via automated group formation and instant teleportation.
I remember at the end of LK people were still running specifically for the achievements pre cata. It’s rare in retail now to even see groups forming for those dungeon master achievements.
“But but hits copium we dont know hits copium how dual spec hits copium will affect hits copium tbc hits copium because the data hits copium from over a decade worth hits copium of wow hits copium is meaningless hits copium because we havent hits copium seen it in hits copium tbc specifically hits copium despite tbc hits copium missing every other aspect hits copium of QOL changes hits copium to help fix hits copium the tank shortage hits copium that still isnt fixed hits copium in retail.” - you.
I gave up and went back to single player games. I’m replaying Mass Effect Andromeda at this point.
It’s a low low.