Who should land a killing blow on Sylvanas?

[Vozul-wyrmrest-accord (Vozul)]

@Galenar-khazgoroth

Maybe it is. I know I have a low tolerance for angst and cynical storytelling because I’m mentally exhausted enough as it is and watching the Night Elves suffer humiliation after humiliation with no payoff has sucked tremendously. There’s little reason to believe things will be better.

At the risk of sounding like I was way too invested at the time, when I watched the Sylvanas Warbringers for the first time and had to process all it meant, I genuinely almost cried. It’s awful feeling so helpless about a story you care so deeply about.

@Syaeles-moon-guard

This is also true. The two are not mutually exclusive and when Horde players are willing to admit that they aren’t and stop acting like the raw deal they get dealt means our raw deal can never be fixed we can start talking about ways to fix both. Until then stay classy.

I agree, both sides got a raw deal. The way to fix it is for Blizzard to build up both sides, not to tear them down. Let me explain.

It’s always more heartbreaking to lose something than it is satisfying to win something when it comes to WoW story developments. You’ll be hard-pressed to find nearly as many people celebrating the burning of Teldrassil as you saw people mourning its loss, outraged at the circumstances, or both. On the flip side, you’ll find far fewer Alliance players who were celebrating the Battle of Lordaeron than you’ll find Horde players mourning how horrifically the expansion has already started as far as Horde pride.

What I want is positive developments for both sides which don’t involve the destruction of the other side. Night elves get their lands back, more night elves get featured in more cinematics about night elves rather than just about the WotA or Highborne, maybe something happens with Elune’s intervention and the seed is planted (perhaps literally) for a new night elven capital to grow. Sylvanas doesn’t need to be forgiven, but she also doesn’t need to be killed or the Forsaken wiped off the face of the planet for good, satisfying things to happen for night elves.

For the undead, I’ll be honest, I won’t pretend to know what the best course would be for them. Their biggest appeal to me was always Sylvanas and her story, not to say I wouldn’t want good things for undead fans as a whole. I think it’s just hard for me to picture the undead without Sylvanas as their leader. It feels almost like if the night elves were expected to continue without Elune. Call it a cult of personality or whatever, but for good or ill Sylvanas was very deeply tied into their society as a representation of their unity through suffering. It kind of breaks my heart to realize Sylvanas will probably never be a part of that identity again. I’m sure other people have some good things in mind, who knows.

[Galenar-khazgoroth (Galenar)]

@Vozul-wyrmrest-accord

At the risk of sounding like I was way too invested at the time, when I watched the Sylvanas Warbringers for the first time and had to process all it meant, I genuinely almost cried. It’s awful feeling so helpless about a story you care so deeply about.

Oh I get you. I’ve been playing that Harry Potter mobile game and they lazily killed a character for shock value and I was so mad about that. Funnily enough I guess I had a similar reaction to Teldrassil when it became clear there was going to be no payoff. Death is not a writing tool to wield flippantly.

[Vozul-wyrmrest-accord (Vozul)]

@Galenar-khazgoroth

Funnily enough I guess I had a similar reaction to Teldrassil when it became clear there was going to be no payoff. Death is not a writing tool to wield flippantly.

Hit the nail right on the head. At the heart of my frustration is just plain indignance that they would have the audacity to include explicit genocide in this story, and then never give the playerbase any kind of satisfying conclusion.

In one fell swoop (and by that I mean with one stupid decision dragged out over two grueling years), Blizzard sent one side of the playerbase into a frothing rage, then pinned the blame on the other side of the playerbase.

Horde players were villain-batted, shamed for being villain-batted, then forced to bend the knee. Alliance players were genocided, forced to ignore this genocide, then expected to make nice without any closure and shamed for still wanting revenge.

Just such a fantastically orchestrated storyline to incite maximum dissatisfaction and anger. I would almost give Blizzard some credit for the amount of skill it must have taken to erode this much player faith both in their writing abilities and game design abilities over the course of a single expansion. Even WoD couldn’t pull this off.

[Sciuridae-alleria]

Thrall, just for the memes.

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

Lou Costello after she does the Gorubashi edition of “Who’s On First”.

[Ohkwaho-deviate-delight]

Saurfang should be in the Shadowlands now . . .

[Gantrithor-myzrael]

Nomi should get the KB.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

@Vozul-wyrmrest-accord

Sylvanas doesn’t need to be forgiven, but she also doesn’t need to be killed

@Vozul-wyrmrest-accord

At the heart of my frustration is just plain indignance that they would have the audacity to include explicit genocide in this story, and then never give the playerbase any kind of satisfying conclusion.

Your second point is exactly the reason why Sylvanas needs to be killed. All these things?

@Vozul-wyrmrest-accord

Night elves get their lands back, more night elves get featured in more cinematics about night elves rather than just about the WotA or Highborne, maybe something happens with Elune’s intervention and the seed is planted (perhaps literally) for a new night elven capital to grow.

I would love all these things.

But none of them would actually resolve the story of Sylvanas burning Teldrassil.

[Elesana-blackwater-raiders]

@Amadis-draka

With any luck she’ll die in a quest like Garrosh did.

We’d need more than luck for that…

@Amadis-draka

But none of them would actually resolve the story of Sylvanas burning Teldrassil.

I don’t think it can be resolved without bringing Sylvanas and/or Nathanos to justice which is kinda confirmed not to happen already.
As for other things to rebuild the Night Elves, the writers don’t seem to have time for things like these when they’re busy destroying the Night Elves further, starting with Tyrande’s downfall after she got her glorious revenge / justice in 8.1.

[Vozul-wyrmrest-accord (Vozul)]

@Amadis-draka

I would love all these things.

But none of them would actually resolve the story of Sylvanas burning Teldrassil.

@Amadis-draka

With any luck she’ll die in a quest like Garrosh did.

This is one of the several reasons why I don’t want Sylvanas to die. At the heart of your wanting to kill her is not to make the story more appealing to as many fans as possible, even if that takes some compromise–you just want to tear this one character down in a way that does a complete disservice to her story, just as Garrosh’s downfall and death was just as much of a dumpster fire.

There are myriad ways the night elf story can be resolved without this one specific thing happening. Why is Sylvanas the cutoff? Will it be a satisfying enough ending for you when the Horde loses every last one of its characters to increasingly Blizzard-appropriate abortions of writing?

How about having Saurfang, one of the chief strategists of the War of Thorns get killed mid-sentence by a little boop of shadow juice? Oh, hmm, already happened. How about the Horde getting its Warchief position torn down, effectively reversing the governmental structures of the Horde and Alliance of Classic and the Horde and Alliance of today? I mean, dear lord, a council? While the Alliance keeps its Blue Warchie–I mean High King position? That happened. Every Horde leader kowtowing and apologizing to Alliance leadership and showing zero initiative in attempting to stop Sylvanas before she got too far? Check. A “faction pride” storyline that centered around shame, division, internal strife and helplessness? Check. The Horde side of the BfA cinematic was lies on top of lies on top of lies on top of lies. Go team.

I’m so incredibly angry. Alliance players have the privilege of the moral high ground bequeathed upon them by Blizzard. Every single one of their morally dubious actions have been whitewashed or ignored. I don’t know if some Alliance players on here understand the searing frustration of knowing the people you’re supposed to feel any amount of rivalry towards outclass you in absolutely every single moral sense. They’re the victims, the heroes, the survivors of Horde-inflicted pain and suffering, every single agony they could inflict upon the Horde in retaliation is instantly and eternally justified. That makes me so bitterly angry I could just scream. I KNOW being the punching bag of the Horde sucks, but dear god, we have no control over it. I just want to lose and get hurt in a way that doesn’t just feel like punishment.

[Ardmccloud-frostmourne]

She’ll be spared thanks to some moronic writing on Blizzards behalf.

Considering how much of a spotlight Sylvanas gets these days killing her off in the warped eyes of the writers would be considered anticlimactic.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

@Vozul-wyrmrest-accord

There are myriad ways the night elf story can be resolved without this one specific thing happening. Why is Sylvanas the cutoff?

While I can sympathize with the feelings you shared in your post, none of them actually address this point. There aren’t a myriad of ways to resolve the Night Elf story without Sylvanas’ death. Blizzard has specifically written it this way.

@Vozul-wyrmrest-accord

How about having Saurfang, one of the chief strategists of the War of Thorns get killed mid-sentence by a little boop of shadow juice? Oh, hmm, already happened.

This indeed already happened. After Tyrande mistakenly blamed herself for the burning of Teldrassil for sparing Saurfang’s life - which Tyrande is wrong about, because Sylvanas would have burned the tree regardless.

Did Saurfang’s death resolve the Night Elf story?

@Vozul-wyrmrest-accord

How about the Horde getting its Warchief position torn down, effectively reversing the governmental structures of the Horde and Alliance of Classic and the Horde and Alliance of today? I mean, dear lord, a council? While the Alliance keeps its Blue Warchie–I mean High King position? That happened.

That indeed happened as well. And Anduin pled with Tyrande to acknowledge the change in the Horde and the establishment of their council.

Did the Horde’s council resolve the Night Elf story?

@Vozul-wyrmrest-accord

Every Horde leader kowtowing and apologizing to Alliance leadership and showing zero initiative in attempting to stop Sylvanas before she got too far? Check.

Oddly enough no Horde leader has apologized to the Alliance leadership, even more specifically not having apologized for the War of the Thorns or the burning of Teldrassil, despite all their kowtowing. That they showed zero initiative in attempting to stop Sylvanas informs Tyrande’s decision to not trust the new Horde council still.

Did the Horde’s complacency resolve the Night Elf story?

@Vozul-wyrmrest-accord

A “faction pride” storyline that centered around shame, division, internal strife and helplessness? Check.

This too indeed happened. Where for all that shame and internal strife and helplessness, the division in Horde didn’t happen until after the Horde was still banded together to try to occupy Darkshore and stand under the shadow of the husk of Teldrassil, a monument to Sylvanas’ depravity that was trying to be held in the name of the Horde.

Did the Horde dividing after Baine’s arrest and rescue resolve the Night Elf story?

The answer to all of this, as Tyrande upends the armistice table and later will storm off into the Shadowlands after Sylvanas is written by Blizzard themselves as no, none of this resolves the Night Elf story.

And you know who has about as much control over this as the Horde players? The Alliance players. We did not write any of the above. Blizzard did.

And all of this?

@Vozul-wyrmrest-accord

I’m so incredibly angry. Alliance players have the privilege of the moral high ground bequeathed upon them by Blizzard. Every single one of their morally dubious actions have been whitewashed or ignored. I don’t know if some Alliance players on here understand the searing frustration of knowing the people you’re supposed to feel any amount of rivalry towards outclass you in absolutely every single moral sense. They’re the victims, the heroes, the survivors of Horde-inflicted pain and suffering, every single agony they could inflict upon the Horde in retaliation is instantly and eternally justified. That makes me so bitterly angry I could just scream. I KNOW being the punching bag of the Horde sucks, but dear god, we have no control over it.

I can sympathize with all of this. But it has nothing to do with resolving the story of Sylvanas burning Teldrassil.

[Danarshi-moon-guard (Danarshi)]

If the story goes down the route where Sylvanas betrays the Jailer in an effort to steal his power/position, then I honestly wouldn’t mind seeing her plan backfire and have the Jailer slap her into oblivion, it’d be nice to see after everyone and everything she’s screwed over with no consequence.

[Zahirwrite-farstriders]

1. Tyrande (Personal favorite)
2. Genn
3. Baine
4. Lor’Themar
5. Playercharacter

[Elesana-blackwater-raiders]

@Amadis-draka

Did killing that 1 Val’kyr resolve the Night Elf Story?

I wonder how the writers would respond to that question…

[Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord (Dreadmoore)]

@Pheandra-emerald-dream

BFA was the most horde oriented expansion ever produced.

[Myalison-khaz-modan (Myalison)]

And Alliance players had nothing to do with what you’re mad about.

Look, we’re now at exactly the same point where we were at the end of MoP. Blizzard wrote story cheques that they couldn’t cover at the end of the xpac. Remember Kodak’s interview at the end of MoP, when Alliance players were ticked off at the lack of payoff for what happened to Theramore? He said that they couldn’t do more because they didn’t want to alienate Horde players.

Here’s the thing- he was right. They shouldn’t alienate Horde players. But equally they shouldn’t alienate Alliance players at the front end of the xpac when they know that they have no satisfying conclusion.

But they didn’t learn that lesson. In fact, they doubled down on it in BfA by a factor of 10. So if some Alliance players are salty it’s because we have been here before and we know how this story ends.

[Vozul-wyrmrest-accord (Vozul)]

Blizzard has written Tyrande as not feeling satisfied until Sylvanas is dead, yes. There’s still a number of ways the night elf story might be resolved. It might not be the most satisfying for night elf players, but when has Blizzard written the most perfectly satisfying conclusion for anyone? As I’ve said before, sometimes compromise for the sake of mutually constructive storytelling is necessary.

You present excellent points, and my listing off the many ways in which the Horde was punished for Teldrassil (whether by the Alliance’s hand or Blizzard’s) was not directly relevant to the night elf story getting resolved.

This much is obvious, but I desperately wish Blizzard never wrote things this way. Truthfully, I can’t budge on my position that I don’t want Sylvanas to die. I feel that it would be a destructive resolution to the night elf story and add another name to the growing list of dead Horde (or former Horde) heroes, and that feels awful.

Neither of us have any say in what happens, but I’ve explained my reasoning as best I can when it comes to a subjective position as this. I respect what you’ve brought to the table, but ultimately that’s what it comes down to.

[Vozul-wyrmrest-accord (Vozul)]

@Pheandra-emerald-dream

Constantly going on about how you want both players to have an enjoyable experience or whatever and yet cringe away from any real solution that is presented.

I do want Alliance players to have a good time. Some of my favorite races are on the Alliance and I mained it for years. I think you’re attaching other traits to me that you see in different red posters. Please, baby, you know me.

Okay. I want to keep an open mind. To save you some time, I’ll tell you right off the bat that I don’t want Sylvanas to die, as it would just upset me. We can set that point aside for now as a wash. Other than Sylvanas dying, though, could you maybe list off what you would want to see to fix the problem?

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

@Vozul-wyrmrest-accord

There’s still a number of ways the night elf story might be resolved.

You keep saying this, but you haven’t actually ever suggested any way that the story of Sylvanas burning Teldrassil gets resolved without her dying.

@Vozul-wyrmrest-accord

It might not be the most satisfying for night elf players, but when has Blizzard written the most perfectly satisfying conclusion for anyone?

Even in cases like this, such as the Blood Elves and Forsaken and even Sylvanas not being present for Arthas’ death, Arthas still died. Blizzard has said that Sylvanas has moved on beyond Arthas now, even without him having died by her hands, but that wouldn’t be the case if Arthas was still live.

@Vozul-wyrmrest-accord

Truthfully, I can’t budge on my position that I don’t want Sylvanas to die.

While you might not want Sylvanas to die that doesn’t really change that there isn’t really any resolution to her burning Teldrassil to be had without her dying.