I think the issue at hand is, by labeling every male a misogynist when they don’t agree with what a woman says, isn’t go to win feminism any new Allies.
Guys will just throw up their hands after a while and think This isn’t worth it. It’s why people shouldn’t be so quick to use the label of sexist unless it actually is
You’re the one who decided the omnicidal necromancer banshee represents “women” and nothing else. Have fun finding your bearings with a moral compass like that, and leave me out of it.
Wait’ll you read the part I already posted, where I said I do like Sylvanas - she’s cool when the narrative isn’t vibe terrorizing you into pitying her no matter what she does.
If that aspect of her character is what you consider “feminist ideology,” you need to delete the posts where you told me “it’s not about feminism” and “it’s not an ideology.”
But before that you can delete your nonsense about “belief in equality.” I told you before neither men nor women should be allowed to use forcefully-raised undead armies to avoid Hell. If that answer’s not good enough for you, then it was too good for you.
If Sylvanas isn’t personifying good feminist values when she does war crimes,the only thing she’s ever done since her failed suicide attempt, then what makes her “a stand-in for feminist ideology”? Being killed by Arthas? Yeah never mind Taretha, or that one guy’s wife from the comic who was not only assaulted but then killed by her jealous husband - the Banshee Queen is feminism. Except when Golden writes her, she’s a misogynist. Robert is a feminist because he has the right opinions, and this is not ideological.
Feminism is Shandris wiping out Orgrimmar before they hotfixed it so you couldn’t do that anymore.
I will not accept any notes on that topic.
I’m going to share a quote from The Will to Change from Bell Hooks
We cannot heal what we cannot feel, by supporting patriarchal culture that socializes men to deny feelings, we doom them to live states of emotional numbness. […] We construct a culture where male pain has no voice, where male hurt cannot be named or healed. It’s not just men who don’t take pain seriously. Most women do not want acknowledge male pain if it interferes with female desire.
I think that quote is relevant to this discussion and the clashes with some of the men I’ve had in this forum. Arthas is the poster boy of manpain in this franchise. I would criticise Hooks for telling feminists to care about man pain because imo manpain is all society wants to talk about and prioritize, but she also highlights to a tee, men’s frustration with women. Feminism doesn’t acknowledge man’s pain. That’s the root of anti-feminism.
This is why my opinion and ideologies actually bring something to the table.
Arthas is the vehicle for men to voice and explore their pain. I think it’s great. This deserved to be explored. I just don’t like when men use their feelings of frustration in feminism to lash out at women, which is misogyny. Especially women who want to understand and acknowledge their pain exists.
But it’s still up to men to change that’s why the book is called “the Will the Change.” Feminism is doing the work, it’s time for men to catch up.
She attributes the source of men’s pain on the need to dominate. I think that ties in perfectly with Arthas and by extenstion the Jailer’s fatal flaws. Patriarchal men (and patriarchal women) must have to let go of the need to dominate, and then they can be free. Perfectly mirroring the arc of the Shadowlands and the Lich King.
Wat.
I think it started earlier than that. BfA was almost comical in the way it was piling on scenes devoted to making sure you hated her, especially on the Horde side (I think they knew they didn’t have to work to get Alliance players to feel that way). It’s one of the reason so many people were on Team Sylvanas out of sheer spite, when the writers were so desperately trying to push Team Saurfang.
BfA also spent a lot of time trying to make us love Baine, to the point where I now cringe every time I see him. So yeah, this is a problem the current writing team has.
If you look beyond the misogyny of the MRA community or listen to the men’s liberation movement, they have the same gripes about feeling discarded by the patricarchy. They are disposable, not allowed to feel emotions outside of anger. Their entire self woth is tied to what they can provide monitarily. They are the most disposable part of society, and that takes a huge toll on men’s mental health. Patriarchy hurts both men and women
I think that’s the core of this thread, is it not? Treating Arthas as disposable means that all men who identify with him now also feel disposable.
It’s good to actually name that wound for what it is. Then we can unpack it and heal it.
I say this stamping down all my righteous fury not to point out that the “disposable woman” is a trope women have had to endure for years in media, not to mention the kill your gays trope.
I think Baine and Anduin have the same problems of the writers trying too hard to make everyone like them.
And, in typical Warcraft style, they make their chosen characters ‘right’ by having everyone else around them spontaneously lose 100 IQ points. Which only ticks off the fans of those other characters and makes them dislike the focus NPC out of spite.
I wasn’t dismissing your earlier points. But my point, and it goes along with yours, is society doesn’t ask why a man feels the way he does. Maybe he was a domestic abuse or SA victim himself, etc.
And instead of trying to figure out why said person lashes out or says things a particular way, people instead are quick to label him a sexist pig who hates women just because.
It’s why I ask people not to throw the word misogyny or sexism around so freely. No one knows what the person on the other end has been through in their life
Hope that makes sense/helps to clarify things
This book I quoted is really great because it unpacks women’s fear of violent men, it talks about SA and abuse. I really recommend it it’s a good read. I’m not trying to come off as patronising at all. I am trying to depolarize and breach the divide because I did spend the last few days internalizing my own poor behavior and the reactions I got from others.
I am a bit miffed that Blizzard so flagrantly and callously used the good will the Player Base had for Lorthemar to bolster Baine and Calia.
BfA starts with Lorthemar sneering at the Alliance and Void Elves… but then a patch or so later, Lorthemar says Baine is the best of the Horde… and as we enter Shadowlands, he goes on about Calia’s wisdom.
It is like they used him as a straight up telegraph of what Blizzard wanted us to feel, because we must have missed it…
Players are fickle and cantankerous, but characters can always be made to bow to the needs of THE PLOT.
If we want to call it that.
That’s what I had said earlier too like we need to discern these things before just calling everyone who disagrees w peoples talking points that.
Like there are valid reasons to dislike Sylvanas.
Misogyny is not a valid reason.
I’ve never called anyone here a misogynist who didn’t display outward misogyny. It’s not a word I throw around lightly to be mean. I use it when it’s necessary to ask people to unpack their internalized misogyny.
Because that’s the only way the world will actually change for the better. How we can actually be a change in the world.
The double negatives vibe like a serpent’s spit
The double negatives be like
Keep the dance in tile, dog.
I feel like if the judge and jury is someone who isn’t particularly good at discerning if someone actually is problematic then that is the point everyone is trying to make in that
Like this is all sort of the same vibe just different ways of saying the same thing I guess but words have weight and we should definitely call out people who are bigoted in any way but it does feel like everyone is somehow being called or implied to be which is the same thing as just calling someone a word imo.
I’d just like to shout out the countless “packed” misogynists who were unpacked into full-blown wife beaters by talking to Mithonic for five minutes.