If you’d done serious reflection about being a bad person you wouldn’t be doing this “wow, this Christie is a misogynist, do you actually hate women?” routine and pretending it’s a valid contribution to a discussion of this character’s fictional history.
Robert Brooks and his thoughts on masculinity don’t have anything to do with the morality of Sylvanas. And if Golden writing an evil, drunken predator as someone who made his way to power and the main villain is misogynist, feminist writing is just the Hays Code reskinned.
He beheads Taretha and we miss her. We cheer Thrall to crush him alive. Later Thrall says Blackmoore deserved worse than death. If Golden’s a misogynist just because she wrote about his evil while he lived, when is it possible to depict without endorsing? Does your ideology even believe in that?
Are Roux and Golden more misogynist than Metzen for stretching Arthas’ creep streak so far?
Yeah, whatever. My bias and post-judice against you is that you’re a vibe terrorist that can’t talk about this character without projecting. You can decide what the problem there is.
a vibe terrorist That’s at least a new anti-feminist term I have not heard before. I guess when the vibe is misogynistic it’s a vibe that deserves to be challenged.
"She always calls people misoginists!’ I call actual misogynists what they are. sorry for killing the misogynistic vibe.
Keep up the self-congratulatory derailment and maybe I’ll decide I’ll like your ideas about what kinds of evil things people should be allowed to depict in fiction. Your track record’s stellar.
I do not think any of us are “the problem,” as we are not the writers or Devs, and these discussions have been going on since WC 3.
It is clear people have different opinions, and gravitate to different PoVs in a story, or form their own interpretations based on their frame of mind.
If the three of us never logged into the forums again, the same issues and problems would be discussed by others. So I doubt any of us as individuals are “the problem.”
Thought you said this wasn’t about feminism, and I was “making this something it’s not.”
See, when I use the air quotes, it’s for things that were actually said in this thread - unlike in your post just now. If you’re known for pulling this kind of thing, who do you think is the problem there?
If you were sorry for killing the vibe you’d go back to your books about how men should have sex better. You wouldn’t keep trying to pretend people not liking your favorite necromancing sadist (or writing a villain who assaults women) means they’re “anti-feminist.”
Either love her or hate her. As long as it’s reasonable and makes sense I don’t see what the issue is.
Are there people who hate her just because she’s a popular female character? Of course, but those people are in the minority. We all seen some questionable takes about what fate she deserves, but again, those people are largely not around anymore
I think when it comes to “their” hatred of the woman in question - Sylvanas - people have used all sorts of lore and canon to explain why they hate her. Sylvanas is absolutely loathed by many characters and regular folks in the story, after all.
And she has been used as a grim puppet by Blizzard to stomp all over various fanbases, from Nelves to Orcs to Worgo to… the Horde is nothing… the list goes on.
I root for the gal, she raises the stakes and makes things fun. But I also understand why so many Players have negative feelings about her.
I mean, I’m a big proponent of the idea that WoW has a bad problem with making morality tied to how subjectively “pretty” or human your race is but I don’t think that that applies here.
Arthas’ downfall was a path he led himself down. This doesn’t mean you cant sympathize with him or acknowledge that Mal’Ganis was intentionally goading him to go further and further in a downward spiral.
Sylvanas’ downfall was due to Arthas killing her, reviving her in a hellish state and performing torture on her until she was broken. This does not mean everything or anything she’s done is justified!
Honestly I’d say the big difference to me is that pretty much all of Sylvanas’ charicterization outside of Gilneas or post-Legion is about how damn tortured and broken she is. She just wanted to end it all after Arthas died, and the only times she’s been shown to be even remotely happy is when Nathanos got his new body and when reconciliation with her sister looked like it was happening. Arthas “killed” Mal’ganis and didn’t miss a step.
There are definitely parallels between the two but Arthas is definitely the less sympathetic of the pair.
This isn’t just about Sylvanas. The dislike of Sylvanas as a character is fine. It’s Ruthus’s blame of feminist writing. It’s his posturing of feminism as a negative impact on the story. His reluctance to say he believes in equality and not providing any logical explanation on why he ferls that way.
So when we say “some of the Sylvanas hate is not about her character” what we mean is both fans of Sylvanas and anti-Sylvanas fans recognize she’s a stand-in for feminist ideology, and some people have anti-feminist and anti-woman stances that factor into their bias against this character.
Misogyny is the prejudice and veiled hatred of women. Anti-feminisim is a form of misogyny. Yeah, that’s just how it is. This hatred of he character didn’t start at Teldrassil. It started when she became the first female Warchief of the Horde in Legion - or before that when she challenged Garrosh, who was the poster boy of established patriarchy and patriarchal masculinity
The overwhelming hate for Anduin because he, too, challenges patriarchal masculinity, is also anti-feminst.
And I can challenge him on that opinion with an opinion of my own - as I did. Without calling him a misogynist.
In my opinion, WC 3 had an allegorical framing of SA with actions performed by Arthas on Sylvanas. As a youngin playing that game - before WoW, before I knew about Forum arguments or even the names of the Devs - just from playing through WC 3, I got the feeling the Video game was saying something about SA couched in fantasy video gameplay.
I take that impression with me. So, I disagree with him that there was some Blizzard style new wave feminism that made Arthas contemptible. I do not need to call him a misogynist to point out I have a different opinion.
I am glad you added that part about Garrosh, because I was gonna say, the Sylvanas hate started way before she became Warchief.
I do not think that is fair. Alot of the Anduin hate comes from various reasons. Like how he lead the whole Alliance. And he was a stand in for Human Hegemony and Supremacy among the Alliance fanbase - fans of the other races chaffed at Humans dominating everything, and he was the face of Humanity.
The thing is Curse, despite your love of this character. You are not an ally to women. You are anti-feminist yourself. So teally, how are you helping? All you are doing is joining other men is silencing women’s voices on this platform. Women you personally don’t agree with.
The respect I have for you respecting and loving feminist fictional characters dies when you don’t respect and support feminist women irl. You instead choose to get angry and defensive.
You love fictional feminist women but not real feminist women. That’s probably why you are not getting many dates.
So I try to have a lore based discussion about the character involved, and you want to resort to petty personal insults. Typical of you. Another one of your lies and false accusations. You are not the arbiter of who is an ally to women.
I do not mind having a lore discussion with you, but your opinions on “feminism and who is an ally” is worth less than nothing to me. Especially because you know nothing about me or my personal life. You just reflexively hurl venom like a vile serpent.
Helping what? I am discussing the lore. I am helping a lore discussion by keeping to the topic. What are you on about?
You think your insane performative Story Forum rants are helping … what exactly? All your rants do is prove you are unhinged and dishonest. I guess that does help anyone who might take you seriously… they quickly realize you are a clown.
Again, you know nothing about me. Believe what ever you wish about my personal life, because I know it is borne from ignorance. You seem to spend a great deal of time fantasizing about what my life is like, though.
We are in the throes of a full blown gender war for the last 4-6 years. Do I think I think my voice makes a difference? No. I am but one person. But many drops in a pond make waves. Waves bring about change.
I’m not doing this for you. I’m doing this for Blizzard. One day Blizzard will listen to it’s playerbase on diversity and inclusion, and maybe one day they will realize the misogynistic and entitled culture of male gamers it has been enabling with it’s stories.
Arthas’s Shadowlands story was the first time in this franchise where misogyny and male entitlement was denied. I understand where the petulant childish rage, like in this thread, is coming from. For the first time in your life a game is telling you “no, this is not for you this time.”
Your respect is worth less than nothing to me. You think labeling yourself a feminist means you are free to make up lies about people? As if just labeling one’s self a feminist means you must be supported in all things?
No. Even a self aggrandizing so called feminist like yourself can act a fool and be rude, and be wrong.
You make up lies and false accusations about people. Calling yourself a feminist does not mean everything you say and do is right.
You are right. And calling Sylvanas a feminist character doesn’t mean that she’s personifying good feminist values when she’s committing war crimes.
When challenging deeply held negative beliefs, I am aware that I am going to get resistance from people reluctant to self reflect or change. The willingness to change and reject cultural misogyny, though, is still on men.
I hear that all too often. I wish I could say I never tire of hearing that… but sometimes I hear that after I warn people about bad stuff - then I wish I was not right so much.
Sure. She is a multifaceted character, and a lot of people can see a lot of things in her.
At least that was a lore related point from you.
Less lore related :
Hey, do not forget that self reflection and change should come from you, as well.
As I often say in BGs when no one else will grab the flag, so I run and grab it : “be the change you want to see.”
Wrong. It is on everyone. Women can not sit blithely by, either. Alot of the people who have anti feminist opinions are female, as well. It is folly to blame one gender, and give a pass to the other. There are males who help women, and women who hurt other women.