The stuff with the Old Gods works a lot better than the way they depict her behavior during the fall of the palace. It feels like they’re embarrassed of what Knaak wrote. The black water was also scarier than what we see in Warbringers.
I answered your question, now it’s time for you to answer mine.
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I don’t believe men should have the right to pee standing without putting the toilet seat up, and I don’t believe women should have the right to raise armies of the angry dead to avoid Hell.
thats a deflection of an answer.
Do you believe men and women should have equal rights?
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I don’t believe men should have the right to raise armies of the angry dead to avoid Hell either.
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Even MRA’s and anti-feminists want equality of the sexes, only MRA’s and anti-feminists believe women and feminism are the root cause of the imbalance. feminists believe that it’s patriarchal society that’s to blame and it hurts both men and women and our rights.
We are polarized because divide and conquer. the same is said about racism and classism. if the poor are too busy fighting amongst ourselves we can’t over throw unjust systems.
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Making a character sexist or racist is a cheap and easy shorthand for “This is a villainous character”, so it’s no surprise that it crops up in WoW writing on occasion. Of course, you can also have a villain do actual villain things like burning down an entire ecosystem with nightsaber kittens in it for villain shorthand.
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Problematic take warning, but it could also just be a character flaw. Tirion used to yell at his wife and call her “girl.”
Like, obviously I’m going to dislike a character if they give indications of being a narrow-minded pile of biases.
But I’m going to dislike a character a lot more if they actually do terrible things.
My fictious sexist uncle is a bad person and I don’t really want to talk to him, but he’s not as bad as my fictious cousin who’s running a scam timeshare targeting the elderly.
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The fictional pretty ghost may be traumatized and a big mood, but she’s still a war criminal.
Tirion might by his own description have been soldiering longer than his wife’s been alive, but if he sees you whipping a subdued orc for no reason he’ll grab the whip away and spank you instead right on the spot.
Finally someone who can learn things from midias other than “smash kill boom”
In fairness I’ve been through alot this January, and when I was faced with the consequences of my actions and the things i’ve done I steadily remembered that scene with ranger general sylvanas getting to terms with the banshee queen sylvanas actions.
“I must face the consequences”
So i can relate to that. I lost a friend and someone I deeply loved for my actions and yet I let him go, cuz I knew it was the right thing to do. It was the consequence of my actions.
And I can relate with illidan rejection of the gift, after been through that much pain.
“I’m my scars” and " only we can save ourselves"
Cuz in the that is true, we are the sums of ours experiences be they bad or good( scars) and no one can or will save you from yourself and your choices.
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I agree - I think characters become very bland when the writes try to make them universally liked rather than allowing the character to have their own traits that appeal to some players and drive away others. The strength of a MMO, to me, is having a wide cast of characters so that everyone can find some character(s) that appeal to them, and enjoy following them around as they interact on an equal footing with the rest of the cast.
My issue in my earlier post was that Shadowlands felt like it was trying to make everyone follow one particular view of Sylvanas - to force everyone to understand just how mistreated she’s been and how much she’s been warped to make these terrible decisions, and so of course their written conclusion is the right answer to her situation and thus any other answer is a wrong one.
And I think that this singular approach actually made the story less appealing to the overall audience than if the story had spent less time/focus on Sylvanas and her moral quandaries, then had Sylvanas jump into the Maw to rescue souls of her own volition while the other characters express differing interpretations of it - Her supporters or forgiving characters believing she is willingly doing penance, while her detractors believe she is simply trying to delay her inevitable sentence. The events stay the same, but the player is left to make up their own mind and the other NPCs aren’t contorted into sharing shades of the same opinion just to make events work.
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It’s also just human nature that people would’ve been more inclined to spare Sylvanas some pity if the narrative hadn’t screamed “FORGIVENESS IS DIVINE! MAY WE MEET AGAIN!” in the same breath it spat “FADE AND BE FORGOTTEN ARTHAS!”
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What I loved about the cinematic is it has a lot of psychology in it. Carl Jung coined the psychology of shadow work, or as he called it ‘the integration of the shadow.’ We repress a lot of negative parts of our conciousness, which Jung called the shadow. It’s the repressed or denied parts of the Self, anything that we feel ashamed of of bury deep and part of his belief in the psychological process to heal the self was to confront and integrate the shadow.
A depressed person who realizes he’s been actively trying to not be happy has integrated his shadow. This was a required process in eventually experiencing an ego death. An ego death is a “complete loss of subjective self-identity” that’s essentially where this ‘new’ Sylvanas is at.
When I say I liked this cinematic I don’t like it for superficial reasons like she got to be a big meany and get away with her crimes. i like it because the writers put actually thought into it and used actual psychology which in my opinion is better than just winging it. The old Sylvanas isn’t gone - the shadow is still there but it’s part of her complete self.
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Also, as a Forsaken main, I like my Sylvanas practical and ruthless. As cold in death as in life, like when the val’kyr first sized her up.
The more Golden writes her with this quivering lower lip the less my interest.
My dude, did you miss Uther’s entire arc?
At least one person involved had some level of regret/forgiveness towards him.
Well, she was also only committing to those fights because she had to. She wasn’t nice in how she fought, but if Garrosh hadn’t been forcing her hand would she be doing much more than what she did in Vanilla? IE: just not give a crap what the Forsaken do regionally as long as UC isn’t threatened?
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Garrosh did force the invasion against Sylvanas’ counsel, but she did revel in using the Plague “as planned” despite his orders.
As for “not giving a crap what the Forsaken do regionally” that’s an interesting way to phrase “putting a dreadlord in charge of virtually every arm of the military.” Killing farmers, collecting skulls, reviving a necromancer, gassing stripped captives, poisoning a happy friendly dog - these were the prerogatives of the Forsaken war machine while Garrosh lived in Garadar.
We’re also told the first New Plague initiatives were her idea iirc.
Exactly. For me, Arthas is a “love to hate” villain. His story was high quality AND he has presence. But I knew he was the villain, from when he became a Death Knight and then Lich King. I knew that he had to go down for the sake of the world in-universe.
While the Culling of Stratholme was debatable as to whether there was another way, it was treated as the start of a dark path. And the first clearly evil choice Arthas made was after he destroyed his ships so the men couldn’t retreat… when he lied to his soldiers and betrayed the mercenaries by claiming they destroyed the ships on their own against his wishes.
Given the fanboying and fangirling I’ve seen over Illidan, the irony of those people condemning or mocking Xe’ra as fangirling over Illidan is thick enough to choke on (Not saying you were, and I like your whole comment, just had to point out the irony I’ve seen).
Interesting that Sylvanas’ calling Arthas that was kept in Warcraft 3: Reforged, but Garrosh calling Sylvanas that in Cata was cut.
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but never pay full price for a late pizza."
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I’ve said it before. One of the problems with morality in WoW is that it’s selectively applied based on the character’s popularity. I actually made a thread about this phenomenon.
And another about something similar.
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/is-the-world-of-warcraft-story-anti-justice/1020524/490
A bit of derailment occurred, but the original points remain valid.
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