You just tried to blame what Arthas did to Sylvanas in WC3 for what she did as a free banshee after he was dead. If it’s that easy to take her off the hook we can use the same logic for Arthas and just say everything he did was the fault of Mal’ganis or somebody else who was genuinely out to get him.
Personal responsibility and agency eventually kicks in for both of them, or for neither.
Thats not quite correct. I suggested that if it wasn’t for Arthas actions (2 of them) there would have been no Sylvanas as we know her. I never entered into Sylvanas’s actions or responsibility, just suggested that he is the progenitor of the evil she brought into the world by creating her.
The conversation was not about Malganis. It was about Arthas and Sylvanas.
And I told you quite correctly that blaming everything Sylvanas did on someone else butterfly effect style can be done to absolve Arthas too. Saying “the conversation was about Arthas and Sylvanas” doesn’t make that any less true.
If the argument is reducible to “Sylvanas would’ve never done anything wrong if Arthas hadn’t grabbed the sword,” we might as well go all the way to who to blame for Gul’Dan and Ner’Zhul being meanies, or to Sargeras. I tried to keep some focus though by only mentioning the figures who you could say directly “created” Arthas, or were progenitors of the evil he brought.
If you wanted to blame Arthas for what Sylvanas did while under his psychic shock collars and marionette strings, fine. Does this mean Godfrey and Galen and Derek are now his fault instead of Sylvanas’? How is the whole thing not just Sargeras’ fault at that rate?
We are per thread talking only about Arthus and Sylvanas. To talk about anyone else is to change the topic of the conversation.
You seem to be fixated on the notion that portioning responsibility on Arthus for things he has done is somehow trying to absolve Sylvanas of what she has done. It isn’t.
The topic of conversation is whose immortal soul does or doesn’t deserve to be redeemed. But if it’s so important to you to say I’m changing the subject, whatever. What does that change about what I’ve said? Your point makes more sense if you willfully and arbitrarily ignore context? Because “per thread” we’ve touched on everyone from Jaina to Garrosh. Mal’Ganis and the others I’ve mentioned in our exchange, yours and mine, are a lot more pertinent to Arthas’ corruption.
Your exact words were 'whatever Sylvanas did Arthas is ultimately responsible for." That was you entering into her actions and responsibility, effectively to say she bears none. Arthas didn’t make her do anything that happened after TFT, he didn’t even make her do most of what went down within that game. And meanwhile Arthas didn’t grab a talking sword appropos of nothing. His evil had its own progenitors. This isn’t a court of law. There’s no inadmissible evidence. This is the story.
We could all just blame these on the void lords and call it a day.
This is not as hard as you are making.
Arthus made a monster. That monster did things. Arthus is responsible. Trying to shift goal posts constantly away from that point won’t change things.
Except they don’t, really. Not only do we know they’ll never go away because they’re a playable race, but it doesn’t even make logical sense.
When they didn’t all live on Teldrassil to begin with … when the entire NE military was elsewhere at the time Teldrassil was burned … when so many were evacuated that they were overflowing Stormwind as described in the same novella that used the word “genocide” … there is simply no way the Night Elves don’t still have a sustainable population.
Pretending that mentioning literally any other aspect of the story is whataboutism or whatever won’t make your point stronger. I break your goalposts over my knee and throw the pieces in the garbage so we can go back to a real discussion.
Sargeras made a monster, that monster made a monster, that monster made a monster, that monster made a monster, that monster made a monster.
Sylvanas’ monstrosity wasn’t consolidated under someone else’s doing, and her murderer wasn’t the father of the Problem of Evil. “But we’re talking about Arthas and Sylvanas!” Then talk about Sylvanas instead of lazily blaming Gilneas on Frostmourne.
Now, now. You’re all pretty. You can settle down.
It’s wild to me that people seem to forget that Sylvanas’ entire MO was to funnel as many souls as possible to the Jailer to break the cycle of life and death cause the Jailer literally long-gamed her into thinking there was no other way (shout out to the lava eel). And I don’t think she was planning to ask anyone to donate their souls to purchase a ticket to eternal hell by asking them nicely.
It’s been pretty clear that she’s an end justifies the means type of gal. Like I love her. I hate what AA did to her. I hate how butchered and inconsistent her motives were. But facts are facts.
Also if I’m not wrong, Arthas was in the same boat with all the retcons. So idk what comparing their kill count has to do with anything unless if we’re rehashing a Legolas vs Gimli situation here.
So if you’ll wanna absolve responsibility, then it’s only fair to absolve both of them together. Otherwise just recognize they both got blood on their hands, and one of them got a get out of jail card with a chance for a comeback while the other will never get a chance at redemption and will forever be remembered as a soul fart.
I like that you have to disclaim that you like the character to discuss basic facts everyone knows. Better that than sit through everything you’d be accused of if God forbid you were a fan of the wrong sadistic mass murderer.
I mean you can say that of any of the playable races that faced extinction. Logically there shouldn’t be enough high elf, draenei, void elf, gnomes, blood elf but gameplay dictates they have enough to always have population to throw at the meatgrinder.
The World Tree was more than a city. It was an entire land, home to countless innocents. How many night elves were elsewhere in Azeroth? Far too few. Now, they were all who remained of their people.
The way I see it Blizzard wants us to think too many of them died without giving a number a la 90-80% whatever percentage. Enough surviving to still maybe just maybe have a sustainable population but too many dead that it was considered a genocide.
Bingo.
Far too few for what, though?
Agreed. And normally I can suspend disbelief on these things, but in this case, they’ve undercut their own argument too much—even in the same book that presents the argument.
First, I want to say that I agree Blizzard made a deliberate choice to use the word genocide. And I also don’t want to come across as minimizing the impact of Teldrassil, because whatever word you want to use for it, it was clearly presented as an atrocity.
It’s obvious that the numbers of Night Elves are substantially diminished. I just don’t see any sign that we’re supposed to think they are in danger of actually dying out permanently.
How did this turn into talking about stupid Sylvanas? Im glad shes in hell.
It’s Arthas not Arthus right?
Are you new here? Threads here always devolve into Sylvanas threads. She’s the SF’s favorite topic. If they don’t devolve into Sylvanas threads, they devolve into Light bad/Morality threads. Enjoy the ride.
To be fair, Uther went through a lot because of Arthas too, like the pain of personal betrayal. He had a bond with him beforehand that Sylvanas never had, so it cuts deeper in a different way.
I consider Arthas a “love to hate” kind of villain, and it’s been awhile but if I recall, you don’t care for Jaina. Not sure why you enjoy complaints about Uther and Jaina taking a backseat for Sylvanas. Liking Sylvanas… well, you do you, but enjoying seeing other characters shafted to prop her up? Sylvanas’ lines worked fine, though Jaina and Uther should’ve gotten more.
Venturing to speak for Cursewords, I’d imagine he resents the idea of Jaina getting more screen time and narrative pity, even if it makes more sense in BFA and SL than it did in Cata and MoP. I’d find that understandable.
I know, it’s my duty to inform everyone those topics SUCK.