Roads? Where we’re going we don’t need…ah damn, we do!
Yes, that’s true, but that goes back to my original point, which is that the game was in legion just a bunch of minigames (BGs, Arena, Dungeons/Raids, and now warfronts I guess, and azerite expeditions I guess) and the “world” had basically become a lobby. The reason it was basically a lobby was because it posed no threat. For non mythic PVE you could remote queue, and then for mythic you could just fly there, which was 100 percent safe, such that the flight could’ve been replaced by a load screen and nothing would have changed.
Removing flying and encouraging pvp in the world makes the world dangerous again, which is what makes it immersive (and thus fun).
Hah, okay then let me rephrase to deal with your nitpicky point: most (not all) people enjoy the game more overall without flying, and the other convenience features added to the game. The proof is in the subscriber numbers.
As soon as they started introducing convenience features to suit people with your fastidious preferences, the game became less fun and subscriber numbers dropped.
Hence pathfinder.
And why do I feel compelled to exercise control over how strangers play the game? What a silly point. For the same reason that we have laws in the real world: you affect other players. When you scream and complain to make blizzard introduce convenience features, you make the game less fun for most players. When you clog up orgrimmar with your hideous dragon mounts, you make the game less fun for other players.
If you dont want to be “griefed” blizzard already gave you PVE mode. So that point is silly. Sounds like you want that 10% bonus (lol) and 100% safety, and you dont care if you ruin pvp mode for everyone else. You’re super selfish.
What a horribly ignorant, subjective post.
I don’t know where you folks get the idea that convenience is what caused people to leave the game, it’s not. Not even close. Just because there are systems in place doesn’t mean you have to use them.
If you and your friends want to run to summoning stones, do that. Don’t want to fly, don’t fly. You can sit on Discord and talk about what girls in school are cute, and what it would be like to actually date one of them, all while you enjoy the game in the manner you want to. Because until you start paying for the subs of others, your opinions on how they are play aren’t relevant.
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I think the actual proof is that flying is very popular. Hence, their quick reversal back in Warlords after it was announced that flying was being removed. Not to mention, Pathfinder itself. There’s very little compelling content that makes up Pathfinder, most notably the reputation grinds. But players do it anyways. Why? Because flying is a popular reward.
There’s absolutely no correlation between the introduction of flight and dropping subscription numbers. If that was the case, TBC, Wrath, etc. would have seen the numbers drop when flight was introduced. But subscription numbers went up during that period. The most logical reason numbers have dropped is simply the age of the game.
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Actually I’m gonna unsub when I find out that flying will be a gigantic grind that you’ll probably only clear just as they announce the endgame zone where you won’t be able to fly.
That’s where I unsubbed in Legion. The day they announced you wouldn’t be able to fly in Argus.
I only came back to BFA because someone bought me the expac and paid my sub.
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“iF yOu dOn’T wAnT fLyInG tHeN dOn’T fLy.”
If they added a button that said “press this for full mythic titanforged gear”, I would call it stupid.
And then I would press the button.
Sometimes I walk around when I feel like it, sometimes I skip stuff. I don’t see how this invalidates an opinion that the game is better when flying isn’t available in current content.
Okay, fine. Everyone gets to play how they want to play. Here’s how I want to play. I want to have an item that turns me into a 200 foot tall stay puft marshmallow man with 20 trillion health and auto attacks that do 100k base damage. I want to walk around destroying cities.
That’s how I want to play. But I cant, because it would make the game less fun for others. Similarly, the way you want to play makes the game less fun for most other people, in exchange for the tiny benefit to you of being able to travel in complete safety AND getting a 10% gold boost or whatever. Who is being selfish here?
Not just flight, but all the convenience features in including flight. Flight us just a contributor.
You have zero proof of this assertion.
I think what you meant to say is, the way that I want to play makes it less fun for YOU. Yet you don’t describe how me wanting those things impacts you at all. You resort to over inflating your case, and using hyperbole, instead of just stating your position. So I will make this easy for you. Just answer the following questions, please:
How does me wanting to have flight deter from your game, specifically?
How does me wanting less RNG deter from your game, specifically?
How does me wanting a convenient queuing system for content hurt your enjoyment of the game and your participation in content?
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Convenience features can just as much be used as an argument that the game’s lifespan was prolonged by the inclusion of such features. There is no evidence that convenience features alone caused a drop in subscriptions.
I’d argue that changing class design every expansion and the gutting of meaningful character progression and customization were larger factors in pushing players away over the long-term.
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I’ve explained this like six times in this thread.
The reason flying and remote q features make the game less fun is that they make the world in which the game is set extremely safe, which renders it meaningless. They also make it possible to complete end game content without ever communicating with another player. Let’s break those down.
First, Convenience features make the world extremely safe. (By world, I mean the actual terrain through which your character moves.) If you dont want to, you will pretty much never die in the world because you can q from the safety of capital cities, or fly over any dangerous PCs from the opposing faction. When flying, any enemy PCS or dangerous elite mob fields, or cliffs, or lava, or fel, etc., might as well be gum drops and chocolate lakes. They pose no threat so you can ignore them.
In other words, the world is of no interest or concern to you. It is basically a lobby you sit in while you wait to participate in minigames. This makes it boring. (again for the 5th time, it has been scientifically proven (and is obvious) that lack of challenge makes people bored).
The mythic hamster wheel is actually pretty challenging and fun, but this isn’t diablo and there is supposed to be more to the game than endless dungeon grinding. If you want that then play diablo.
Oh and since you’ll need help here, if YOU can fly then you wont be on thr groud possibly trying to kill me on my way to a raid, which makes my trip to the raid boring.
Second, The second one is self explanatory. Convenience features reduce social interaction significantly. You dont even have to say “hey lock can u summon me?” You can just fly there in 2 seconds, and you cant get attacked by alliance so ou dont have to ask for help, ever, which reduces camaraderie and thus fun.
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Sure, I can agree. None of these decisions are made by themselves with a few exceptions.
For example, when Ion said ‘no flight in WoD or any future expansion’ and that was reversed 3 weeks later, it’s a safe bet that the sole reason for the reversal is that people didn’t like it and it was causing (or going to cause) revenue loss.
The people that dislike flight will say that WoD lost subs because of lack of content. They may be true, but they can’t prove that people didn’t also leave because of the fiasco that was flight.
Often times these decisions are one more straw added to the pile, and then some minor thing…maybe no flight, maybe increased RNG, maybe the same world quests formula that the previous expansion had, is the last straw.
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Then why are we waiting so long for it? Flying won’t matter in Najatar.
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To you.
That’s just wrong. I love the world within the game, I just have desire to engage in WPVP with others.
This statement is actually really telling.
Sounds like a personal issue to me. How you play is 100% dependent on the actions of others. That’s not me or how I play.
I don’t play WoW to socialize. I lead people all day at work. I don’t need to hear about your day, what makes you happy or anything else. An MMO is a gaming architecture, it’s not HOW you play the game. It’s not. In fact, I can level from 1-120 without even saying a single word to others.
Now just because you don’t play that way doesn’t make it the way I have to.
Notice the freedom of choice again. If I want to talk I will. If you can’t talk you’re miserable, so you want to change it for everybody else so you can be happy.
Now, who is being selfish here?
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I have a net cannon and a collection of turtle shells that would say otherwise.
My favorite move in pre patch was to ice nova a flying target, blink to the ground and net them. Instant death usually.
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Then your argument should be against the ability to queue for instanced content. Those features weren’t introduced until well after flight was in the game.
As for flying and not being on the ground possibly trying to kill you, that argument holds no water for PvE servers. Nor does it hold water since instanced content can be queued and you won’t be on that road anyways.
Flight is merely used as a scapegoat for the demise of world PvP when it really had no impact. Instanced battlegrounds rang the death knell for world PvP. Why go out to the Crossroads to attack lowbies when there’s no gear involved and you can queue from the comfort of Stormwind? PvP players themselves killed off world PvP, not flight. If world PvP was so enticing, players would be dismounting at the first sight of each other. But they don’t.
Add in the introduction of CRZ and the lack of any notification from a World Defense channel, and world PvP is DOA. Because it’s pretty hard to have world PvP when you don’t know that the next zone over is under attack.
The only reason flight is scapegoated in this manner is because it is so visible. You see a player flying and think, hey that was an HK I missed. Meanwhile, all those times enemy players rode by, just out of sight, you never saw them.
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fixed it for you
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MoP world Pvp was booming and had flying from launch, too. There’s a reason that more engaging PvP happened on the Timeless Isle than in tanaan, vol’duun and the duelist’s guild.
The expansion was fun.
Flying is fun and the classes still had depth.
Anyone who unironically thinks flying killed the game probably missed the reality check Ion got during WoD.
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Exactly this. If you want world PvP to happen, you have to do it with world design by location. The vast majority of world PvP happens in common questing areas and quest hubs.
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