I literally said and linked LFR where numbers don’t matter. You can go inside naked and clear it. So basically the LFR people were not using WE either regardless of its performance. this is a number that you cannot argue against.
In other words, not even the most casual people cared about WE. Next.
This was also during a time when BM prioritized Crit and haste over Mast as well so it’s nothing special, and another question is, are we talking permanent pets or pets summoned through spells like Hand of Gul’dan or Summon Dire Beast? Cause if the former, the only real pet spec is BM as its pet does 40% of their damage compared to Demo’s Felgaurd alone only attributes 25% of their damage and Unholy’s Ghoul alone doing 15%.
Nighthold was one of the worst times for Frost Mage. It was the biggest transition from WE to LW in part to that tier set damn near invalidating the Water Jet. Legion alone was a bad time for Frost as it also was the first iteration of double-lance making Glacial Spike very difficult to use and inevitably buffing LW. And, https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/12#class=Mage&spec=Frost&difficulty=1 the raid right before Nighthold on LFR. Looksie how many Elementals are being used. It’s almost like they wanted to use it or something.
How do we rigidly define a pet class? I’ll start with a short list of my own to start out.
Back to this again I see.
Bm demo and unholy are pet specs.
Frost is not.
Frost is a spec that had a pet and the majority hated it hence why it was removed.
This makes me feel better about the mage community in general, because it shows they can appreciate their fantasy, we just have a compulsive need to want to be at the top of the charts. Thanks for sharing.
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Hopefully that would never happen. People so out of touch about a class should never be a dev.
Wether the pet is permanent or temporal is irrelevant.
What matter is after hitting target X for 5 min how does the class’ damage profile look?
Did the class’ itself with their own skill has the most damage or the pets.
BM/DM/UH
If you look at damages:
UH:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/9mkxGVjb2Rd8yHvN#fight=6&type=damage-done
Pets the one who are doing the most damage
DM
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/6NVtB1CrhqXb8fJx#fight=213&type=damage-done
Pets
BM
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/HnQd3KvAWRyPxJwz#fight=45&type=damage-done
Pets are doing the most damage
Aaaaand I stopped reading you right here.
Frost mage was one of the best classic nighthold:
Secondly if you look at the 2nd and 3rd boss and look at the top “Top talents”
See what you have there? “Lonely winter”
So the issue is, why would the vast majority of players witch back from “Chilled to the bone” to “LW” on the last two bosses? 
No, it’s almost like Frost mages had serious issues with rotation/proc draught where they could been sending 8-10 frostbolts without getting a single BF, meaning the Water Jet that the WE gives is basically was useless, that’s why the tier set improved on that.
Summon Pet(s) can be Permanent or Temporal. Doesn’t matter.
The class has multiple pets for different situations.
talents interact with the pet, or the pet itself has talents
stats interact with said pet.
Your rotation not necessarily interact with the pet, but enhances it.
Pet has a significant job in dealing, like 40-50%+
For example you are a DOT class cause your main source of damage comes from DOTS:
Like Affliction
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/ha1WMtN63rdqTg2n#fight=5&type=damage-done&source=9
Sadly I linked him all this infor from aberus and he ignored it saying they werent permanent pets so it didnt count.
That’s like moving the goalpost 101. Lol I guess you cannot reason with people who have their head in sand.
Pretty much. They believe they represent the majority yet neither of them have basic class understanding and it shows
This sums up this whole argument from your side. What you argue is the best time for mages I argue is not. BoD was the best time for Mages. I got to use both Pet and Glacial Spike; two spells I find fun. Unlike Nighthold, which as I’ve tried explaining to Snozo with other raids, isn’t a good raid to use as a comparison for reasons, that if you gave any respect to people you talk to that have differing opinions, I had posted.
You do know what moving goalposts is right? It’s what y’all have been doing the last hundred posts you make. If it makes no difference whether the pet is temporary or not, then how doesn’t Frost pre-change count to being a pet spec? It’s a permanent pet that contributes a significant number, both through pure pet damage and interaction of procs, to the mages damage. They had a mastery that increased the pets damage. They used to be able to heal their pet through output and a little later casting Frostbolt into it via Death Coil mechanics. However, none of that makes Frost a pet spec. The only difference between frost and the others is Unholy and Demo summon extra pets during combat. Hell, BM barely even does that and you can even build around never summoning pets throughout the fight. Thus, one of the, as you and I agree, pet specs only uses a permanent pet.
It seems the only time permanent and temporary is important is when it’s serving your narrative. Look at these logs with all this pet damage. Ok, and how much is coming from Fluffy and how much is Dire Beast? How much is Felgaurd and how much is Dreadstalkers? If Unholy and Demonology didn’t summon their permanent pet, how much damage would they lose realistically? You won’t answer that, cause you can’t answer that. Well, not without proving my point(s). Unholy and Demo are pet specs through spell rotation. BM is a pet spec through pure damage, and Frost was a pet spec through interaction. Though, I’m sure only pet damage, regardless of source, is you’re only metric on something being a pet spec.
Remember, throughout Frost’s history, the Elemental was a key part. First introduced as a CD in TBC to being glyphably permanent in Wrath. Players then leading it to become a key part in Cata through legion where devs gave players the option and all was well until the worst part of Frost’s history in Nighthold.
I’ve never denied BM, Unholy, and Demo were pet specs. I’ve only pointed out, if you want to say something that Frost does that is the same these other three do doesn’t count, it can’t count for the others.
My favorite part is when he cherry picked my carry parse, ignoring my 72.4% above average parse on Anduin when controlled for ilvl. While also being totally off on the mastery capability in legion, yeah i’d love to hear more about how much he knows. I also did it with a sup-par configuration because i couldn’t be bothered to use necrolord, our best raiding covenant. I’m also an M+ player. making my parse and “low skill” that much more interesting. They’re not worth the trouble.
www.warcraftlogs
com/character/us/proudmoore/nelluced?zone=29#boss=2546&private=1&bybracket=1
What’s even funnier.
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/zNW3anRrYjKwmXtb#fight=1&type=damage-done&source=8
This is a parse from a WotLK Demonology Warlock. Meaning Warlocks, even the spec Lore-wise around them, wasn’t a pet class in their definition.
The water elemental pet was laid to rest by Poseidon.
BoD was literally the WORST time to be not just a frost, but to be any kind of mage.
Not to mention back then when we had proc drought way more often, and there were times when had to send 8 frostbolt so I could shatter GS. Wow so much fun.
I never once moved the goalpost, unlike you two bozos. “oh well they don’t count because they are not permanent!”… “Well in that case it doesn’t count cause…” etc etc.
Also THEY NEVER contributed “significant number” are you kidding me?
BoD log, less than 5%!!!
And please…flurry? Seriously? That’s not our main DPS spell, even if I an generous and say it contributed half the flurries in this top log it’s still an only 4%, so congrats 9.5% is WE.
And the pets the UH dh summons are actually doing damage and are actually useful. Congrats.
Well I can totally say that they would probably lose way more than the mage would if he forgot to summon down his perma pet.
I explained it already to you that Damage is one of the KEY points when it comes being a “pet class” because if we go by your standard then according to you shamans would be a pet class because of their totems.
Yeah I remember frost being the PvP spec till Legion, cause from Vanilla to Legion it was always either fire of arcane the go to spec when it came to PvE. And no, the worst was BoD, I already explained it to you.
No, it’s not being meta. It’s being useful.
I also gave a gameplay example aswell where back then GS was a super bad spell. Thankfully it’s a much better spell in DF.
We had no Freezign winds and a much lower BF proc chance, also flurry worked differently back then. We could cast it normally, or instantly with BF proc once.
Frost had notoriously bad proc droughts and you could not send your GS if you had a bad luck streak.
Lot of bosses required that you stood under or relatively very close to the boss, and if you did that you could not shatter GS even with flurry, because GS hit the boss faster due to projectile speed. I get that on LFR/Normal/HC you guys did not notice, but it was super bad.
This might explain the disconnect if he and i are willing to play something because we enjoy it, not because it’s meta. It’s that much more jarring when people who don’t love and appreciate the spec are the ones whose voices are being heard. Did you bother to check his parses? Like if he was parsing above average and playing the way he wants. That sounds like a win from a gaming perspective.
He might not have been referring to mage’s global balance specifically but what it meant for him personally. I.e he could get away with playing the funnest way possible and still be meta in a guild that doesn’t force your play styles.
It’s not about being meta. It’s about being useful. You are a DPS, if you are at rock bottom then you are not being useful.
I also gave you guys an explicit gameplay example.
Back then we did not have Freezing winds and also BF had a much lower proc chance. We had multiple examples where mages hit proc drought and had to send 8-10 extra frostbolt fishing for a BF proc so they could launch GS. It was bad.
This was in legion: it was way better here, cause you did not had to cast GS, but it could also happen here. These became pretty common during BFA (BoD most notoriously)
It was also a bad design that a lot of boss requred that you stand really close to it. Therefore you also could not shatter your GS cause back then GS hit the target way faster than flurry could apply the Winter’s chill affect, therefore playing on any boss like Vectic or Blockade.
Not to mention any boss that has MC mechanic in it…
Luckily it’s a much more better and fleshed out spell in Dragonflight.
Actually, in MoP it did stop being the PvP spec. It’s just unfortunately unlike Fire and Arcane Frost suffered from soft-caps and an unchanged proc chance through stats meaning the other two just outpaced it.
This right here is what they don’t get. Damage isn’t the issue until they make it the issue. I didn’t care that Glacial Spike was meta or not. All I cared about was whether I could use it or not. Which is why I’ve said BfA was one of the better times for post-flurry Frost. Did I not like not getting procs? You betcha. Did I come to the forums in attempts to help steer a way IL can be brought back into the rotation? Hell yeah! But I enjoyed every minute I could that I had not only the option, but it was the meta option, to use Ele and Glacial. Until Shadowlands came and returned us to Zerida’s apparent favorite playstyle: Lonely Thermal Void. Blizzard has always sucked at making Frost work. Instead of like with fire having fire blast give mastery, they had straight additional damage to specific spells. Had lance increased frost damage stacking NoIL would never have been a thing.
Look through the logs you posted and tell me the percentage that is based souly on the pet ghoul please. Not the army of the dead, not the gargoyls. Just the permanent ghouls damage.
They also conveniently left out that Gs/welly (bone chilling actually but welly was there) was meta 5/9 bosses in mythic BoD
hwww.warcraftlogs
com/zone/rankings/21#class=Mage&spec=Frost
Their linking of low mage ratings just confirms my previous pathogical neglect comment that they tried to shoot down.
Are you seriously trying to link normal parses to validate your lack of understanding how the class works?
LOL
One blue parse by ilvl on normal means nothing.
we can easily fact check this
SOO
1st boss:
Frost dead last:
2nd
Fost bottom tier:
3rd
Frost 3rd from bottom:
4rd
Frost bottom tier:
5th
frost bottom tier:
6th
frost bottom tier:
Do I need to find more bosses on MoP? Frost is basically the worst mage spec when it comes to raiding back in MoP
Alerady explained to you, that Permanent/Non permanent are irrelevant.