When is faction imbalance going to be addressed?

Community General Discussion
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Right back at you, the difference is QUE time is still accurate and your “measurement” YOU know is not accurate.

This still isn’t true champ. No matter how many times you try to say it, scream it from the tops of roofs and mountain tops, sorry to tell you but it still isn’t true.

You need to look up that word, read the definition and then…oh wait never mind we have already established you and logic don’t go together multiple times.

You are entitled to your opinion.

The difference is i have pulled apart what you called logic several times in this thread… you just keep saying things like i am “emotional”, “unintelligible”, “angry”, “spiteful” and any number of other adjectives that not only aren’t true no matter how many times you just say them, but i have proved wrong multiple times.

Thanks for more laughs. You are a very entertaining dude.

Says the guy USING FLAWED “data” and KNOWS it’s flawed, good.

So in one statement you not only try to USE realmpop as something people should call data AND SIMULTANEOUSLY prove that it is completely inaccurate WHILE in the very previous statement you say i have a “slanted angle”. Bravo.

Also still sticking to 46% of the population doesn’t want to do content, yea you are back to that again.

This might be true…but it isn’t MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. EVERYONE IS SEEING THE SAME QUE TIME DEVIATION. It’s not like i am the only one getting 12 mins for Horde and 2 mins for Alliance, try again.

This too MIGHT BE TRUE, IF IT WASN’T FOR ALL QUE’S FOR EVERY BG BOTH SIDES THAT EVERYONE SEE’S. See how that works, no matter how much you want to lean on realm pop, EVERYONE see’s the que problem, just like they did when Alliance had more players several years ago…see how that works. It wasn’t just a participation problem, it was a participation problem brought about by a POPULATION PROBLEM.

There is no making it up in my head, go que up for the bg’s, YOU TOO will see it. No matter how many times you folks want to say i am making it up, ANYONE in this thread or in the game see’s it and that doesn’t change no matter how many times you say it is irrational, illogical or any other adjective you want to use to try to bolster your flawed argument.

I just use YOUR mechanics, you are the one pointing out you have 8% MORE people on the Horde then the Alliance does, those are YOUR NUMBERS. If you don’t think 8% is alot, in a game with 2 million people, the Horde would have almost 200k more people on it. Again, that is YOUR “data” not mine.

Furthermore you guys cling to this idea there is no population imbalance yet YOU ALL KNOW ALLIANCE FOLKS HAVE TRANSFERRED to the Horde side…guess what that BY DEFINITION MEANS THE ALLIANCE LOST PEOPLE while ALSO meaning that the participation for the Horde got higher. See how that works, you don’t just get new Horde players and the Alliance population somehow stayed the same.

QUE times is something EVERYONE CAN SEE. EVERYONE in the game lives with it. Again, i never said there wasn’t a participation problem, that is a you guys thing. I have said REPEATEDLY it is a participation problem brought on BY a population problem.

No that is not my argument at all, that is WHAT YOU FOLKS say my argument is. You ALL say and know that realmpop is not accurate yet you are still pointing to it as some gospel. I have already said all it points out is a population imbalance…WHICH IT DOES, some 8%. I have simply said it is not accurate and it’s method of finding population is flawed (which it is and you folks admit that) and you guys are having a cow about it.

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The length of these posts are getting TOO D@MN HIGH!

But nah, I’m glad to tune back into the Motors VS Itlatn show.

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Itlatn is trolling me and has been since about mid afternoon yesterday, that is why all he has is i am “irrational”, “angry”, “unintelligible”, it’s ok though, keeps the thread at the top of the forums and people reading.

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You mean the part where the only difference between the top alliance and top horde is 2 keys and that this highlights to it being a participation issue again? :man_shrugging:

Probably because I didn’t speak of Cata and MoP?
Ive been speaking of WoD and on.

which suggests there is clearly a point where the attitudes also shifted.

Pardon…not EMFH, but its previous incarnation. Its been 15 years, things get fuzzy.

The alliance was dominated because they had a huge advantage in population. Their competitiveness didn’t change when things became even. So clearly, at some point, everyone changed their minds and began complaining that the alliance were the whipping boys of blizzard.

I doubt blizzard can do anything that would correct it without damaging things long term.

It is fine, but you’re making a number of presumptions that are incorrect on your part.

  1. I acknowledge there is an issue. I do not agree with the notion that blizzard is at fault, nor do I agree that constantly moaning and groaning will fix the issue.

  2. I do M+, just not working on this toon just yet until I have proper time.

  3. Raiding and PvP are much more time intensive than M+. Getting to 2k rated would be beautiful, but that was back when I had time and still had a vanilla account. T^T

I miss my gnome mage.

Ahahaha, so now you’re shifting goal posts?
“I didn’t claim it can be mathematically proven, I just claimed horde racials are better”.

you realize that’s verifiable through math…right?

And you’re an expert. Teach me senapi.

You mean you’re just here to complain and rage at anyone who wont complain with you. Gotcha.
Good talk.

It isn’t.
Queue time is dependent solely on participation and not population.

Denial is not a healthy thing.

You keep making Danthe’s law relevant here. Declaring you are right does not make you right.

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Until then, enjoy the Horde dominance. :slightly_smiling_face:

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Those que times ARE accurate, you ARE in fact waiting 12 mins and under 2 for games to start.

This might be true if your OWN “data” in realm pops didn’t already point to a population imbalance of almost 10%. The fact is all those Alliance toons that moved Horde side, yea, they are Horde players now and they don’t count for the Alliance. So no matter HOW MANY TIMES you want to say the populations are about equal, they AREN’T and we both know that based on YOUR OWN “DATA” and we also know all those people who transferred are gone from the Alliance and on Horde side and THAT POPULATION IMBALANCE CREATES the participation imbalance.

Truth is healthier.

The difference is it is all here for people to read and no amount of you bring up some obscure “law” that you still refuse to spell right changes that.

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No one cares about the times Motors.
What matters is what contributes to their times.
Which is participation, not population.
Your very own demand is killing your own argument dude.

A 7% difference in population would not contribute to a 300% difference in queues times for one faction side. That isn’t how it works dude.

So why do you lie to yourself?

So now you are relying on the idea of “people agree with me so I am right!”. That is just Danthe’s law being applied again.

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Again i have said that there is indeed a participation issue, but keep reading.

I been speaking of Cata and MoP, so again. You gonna denie that the horde didnt have a racial advantage for PvE that lured competitive players/guilds?

Or maybe as i been saying but it seems that you dont get it, PLAYERS SHIFTED. The guild with most World First Races aka Method was an alliance guild, they shifted and i even linked before in a interview (i dont know if you read it) for the better DPS racials and i will repeat myself i see no issue with it because they are looking for any advantage.

But just like Method many other guilds did too and players, there is your “attitude shift” which is basicly players transfers.

Or as i said, clearly at some point competitive players got lured into the horde hence why you see the participation issue.

The horde had their own base just like alliance have it now, but theirs grew for free too with alliance players faction transferring.

I do think Blizzard coulda end the bleeding sooner, i have no issue they giving incentives to players to join the horde back in TBC when the horde was massively outnumbered but they shoulda end it earlier.

And moaning an groaning, well tell me how things get changed here? Nerf or buffs? As you said EMFH got nerf, you didnt read the horde moaning and groaning everyday about it? Because sure i did.

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LOL, if no one cared, they wouldn’t be in here complaining about them. Try again.

Again you are entitled to your opinion, still doesn’t change the fact that there is a population imbalance causing a participation imbalance just like we have seen many times before and will see again if the population swings again. It really is just that simple. That is WHY when the population for one side goes up, the que times on that side go up and don’t just stay the same or go down.

I don’t have any demand, just simple logic. Doesn’t change, won’t change no matter how many times you try to troll me.

Based on what? If you have 100k-200k MORE PEOPLE, what is your evidence this is a fact? Oh that’s right, just like everything else you have none. And oh by the way THAT IS EXACTLY HOW IT WORKS WHEN THE ALLIANCE PEOPLE THAT TRANSFERRED ALL QUE UP FOR THOSE ACTIVITIES. And no amount of you saying it doesn’t happen that way, changes that.

This is just silly. And clearly points to you being a troll.

Again with the obscure internet reference you can’t even spell correctly after having been corrected twice. Can you not troll any better…even just a little?

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Oh…you posted again. There is nothing here that is logical and capable of being discussed. I cannot say I am surprised given your history.

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The bonuses we get are the systems put in place to help solve the faction imbalance. Only time will tell if they’re successful

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That’s because you have nothing to rebutt, you don’t use logic as proven multiple times and you are clearly trolling as proven by both of your last posts.

Are you done now?

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You say this, but you’re relying on a queue system for a measurement of participation…while arguing about population.
That’s not logical…

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That’s NOT what i am solely relying on, that is what YOU SAY i am relying on.

That is why it is not logical IN YOUR VIEW. You have YET to even acknowledge BY DEFINITION YOUR OWN “data” SHOWS A POPULATION IMBALANCE OF ALMOST 10%, which proves my point to begin with. You also have yet to acknowledge the reality that all those Alliance players that moved to the Horde ALSO PROVE MY POINT that there is a population imbalance AND that those people who moved ALSO HELP CREATE the participation imbalance.

But i don’t expect you to acknowledge reality, you don’t use logic as proven multiple times and are clearly trolling, which has also been proven multiple times.

So i ask again, are you done yet?

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That is what you said you’re relying on. So how can you be so upset that we are following your statements? It is illogical.

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No, that is what YOU SAID i was relying on. Nowhere in this thread did i EVER SAY i relied on that. Nor would i EVER SAY i was solely relying on that.

Edit because you edited your post while i was replying:

Again, still not true, no matter how many times you bring it up and try to troll with it.

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You claimed realmpop is inaccurate and should be ignored.
You claimed that you instead would rely on queues as your way of proving a point. Even though it says nothing.

Its all right there in this topic for everyone to see.

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Nope, that is not what i said. I said it is inaccurate and YOU want to use it as gospel. I also said it proves my point. I furthermore said it uses a flawed mechanic.

Nope, that is not what i said. That is what YOU said i said. Again a you thing. I said que times point to an imbalance in participation brought about by a population imbalance as i have been saying ALL THREAD LONG. Still hasn’t changed and it won’t change no matter how many times YOU say i said something i didn’t.

Yes it is. It’s even right here for you to go reread AND re-quote if you want.

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:face_with_head_bandage:

It is a question of perception more than it is actual faction imbalance, yes. If only someone had said that previously.

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This is where the common horde argument breaks down and they stop facing reality in order to defend their unfair social advantages.

Most players don’t “pick a side” in the way of “I play X and only X”. I do, but I am a part of an extreme minority.

Most people play a variety of things on both sides. And while they will have their “main characters” that they spend most of their time on, they are free to spend time on either side. There are not usually any penalties to jumping the faction fence.

If I want to spend a few hours playing a horde toon, there is nothing stopping me. No the thousands of hours I’ve spent playing alliance. Not the eleven alliance toons I have at 120. Not the guild I’m a member of on the alliance.

Hell…we even have a horde branch.

The problem we’re facing as Alliance is one of participation, but it’s not what the horde posters are painting. People don’t “prefer alliance to do non-consequential content”, which is what they’re really suggesting both as a way to hand-wave the whole argument and also to get some kind of insult in to make themselves feel better (hint: if you didn’t think we were right at some level, you wouldn’t feel the need to belittle the argument in the first place and be so dismissive).

The participation problem the Alliance is facing is one of “Activity Monopoly”. The horde has a monopoly on end-game activities because it’s where people are playing those activities.

If you want a mythic group, it is far easier to find on on the horde side.
If you want to raid, it is far easier to find a raid on the horde side.
If you want to PvP, it is far easier to find a PvP group on the horde side (which, funny enough, works against the horde because it requires alliance participation as well)

As has been pointed out, the best measure of imbalance is in Queue Times. PvP will be the best measure overall because it, in a way, compares faction participation against one another. When the alliance have instant queues, the horde queue is 8-10 times longer.

On the flip-side, you’ve got dungeon queues, LFR raid queues, movement on the mythic+ group lists, and raid hall of fame placements. In all of these, horde queues are far shorter than alliance queues, the group list is far longer and moves faster, and the horde mythic raid hall of fame fills in half to a quarter of the time.

So the problem we have here is that horde posters keep trotting out wowcensus stats like they mean anything when they don’t because they either don’t understand how statistics work, don’t understand what the census figures actually mean, are being dishonest to protect the status quo, or all of the above.

Here is the actual problem: WoWCensus doesn’t tell us anything meaningful because it deals in character data, while queues and other markers of meaningful participation deal in player data. I hand-leveled 11 alliance toons to 120 this expansion, 2 horde toons with tokens, and a 3rd horde toon with my shadowlands 120 token. There are people who are complaining that 50 character slots is not enough.

Character data is not a mark of player data because we lack some very important information.

We don’t know how many toons your average player has, and how many of them tend to be what faction.

We don’t know how many players tend to favor one faction over the other and to what extent.

We don’t know how much time players tend to spend on a single toon, and what the average breakdown is, in minutes played, between alts, between factions.

All of that is data we would need to have in order to WoWCensus to be anything other than trash data, and we have none of it.

Queue times are the best data points we have. The Mythic raid leaderboards on the WoW website are the second. The combined mythic+ leaderboards on raiderIO is the third. PvP leaderboards are also in there somewhere.

The alliance has plenty of characters, but nowhere near enough players spending time on it. Groups are harder to find and content is completed less often because of it. And this isn’t because more people just happen to “choose red”. This is because people are making an active choice with little to no barrier to that choice, to go where people are spending their time.

The key word there is “spending”. It’s a valuation proposition. Time on the alliance side is less valuable than time spend on the horde side because of various reasons. This is also why it’s a solvable problem.

The original PvP quest, back before it got nerfed due to horde QQ, was the correct way to go about getting people to spend time on the alliance. The fact that people playing horde felt it was unfair is proof that it was working.

When you are in a superior position anything that brings equality at your expense is going to feel unfair, and the problem here is that the wow population, due to the fluidity of faction participation, is zero sum. Especially with expansion pre-orders giving you a 120 token and free ilvl 388 greens. Barriers to faction participation right now are at an all-time low.

…and there is zero real incentive to play Alliance. Other than the social costs of losing access to friends.

So, when is faction imbalance going to be addressed? My guess is never. They’ll try to fix it quietly, and continue to fail because the lead dev is a horde fanboi.

How can it be fixed? You have to increase valuation in the under-valued faction and make it worth people’s time. If there are no meaningful differences between the factions, incentive is the only way. …if there are meaningful differences, say the devs enjoy developing one faction more than the other and it shows, then the incentives are going to have to be even greater to compensate or the devs are going to have to start actively caring about the other faction. Good luck there.

“But…giving the other faction free things isn’t fair!!!”

Put on your big-boy pants for once in your life.

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