This has been my experience also.
We went on a stretch where we lost at least one person a week for a month over melee weapons.
Always warriors and rogues.
Our guild handles loot well, but loot goblins tend to get pissed off and spiral out of control when it doesn’t go their way 100% of the time.
15 years late on those. Sorry.
Then it isn’t a loot council is it? It’s like all forms of government are perfect and would be completely fine except for one factor…the HUMAN factor.
So a loot council by and of itself is not the issue is it? It’s the human factor involved in it.
I’d argue the opposite.
DKP offers the exact same payment to everyone in the raid regardless of input. It’s too simple to take in the amount of variables that should be considered when distributing loot.
Warrior A spent a week farming HoJ, and killed Rend 50x for his MH. He also has 300 alchemy and brings pots and flasks for the raid.
Warrior B didn’t bother to do the Thrash Blade quest and still has quest green weapons and a carrot for their trinket.
I’d hate to see warrior B win Strikers Mark simply because they showed up.
Loot counsel wouldn’t even consider that happening.
DKP has its place, but if you want to progress quickly and efficiently, you use a LC. If it is being abused, address the issue.
Then dont bring the warrior that wont put in the effort. Yet you will because you need bodies. Your using each other except he maybe half the dps of warrior number one but its better then no one. While knowing he wont get anything. That’s loot council right there.
Edited since I said rogue and you said warrior.
What’s the deal with people driving slow in the passing lane?
Loot Council isn’t perfect, but I wouldn’t mess with any other system when it comes to raiding in Classic.
My goal is to have the raid go as smoothly as possible and the loot from the raids go where it will help our raids the most. For this particular goal Loot Council is ideal as their are typically loot priorities and all kinds of things designed to make your raid experience smoother each week. It comes down to trust, if you trust your Loot Council to work in your raids best interest, it will help you progress faster.
I no longer wish to ever be in a DKP guild, simply to many people bidding on items that aren’t good for them, or way better for others, which ultimate hurts your raids health over all. It’s more fair loot distribution on an individual level, but I would argue as an individual you will do better the stronger your raid team is, which is why I only personally would join a loot council guild I felt I could trust.
FWIW - I joined a guild with loot council totally blind in classic, didn’t know a single person. Their actions early on validated my choice I trusted these guys with the loot, and I think that is a key piece in choosing a LC guild. You need to trust the motivates of your guild and see they act in a way they speak.
I absolutely hate loot counsel. Even in the best of guilds there is so much bias and favoritism it is crazy. If you’re well liked and playing a meta spec, gear will rain down on you. If your new to the guild, disliked, or playing a meme spec the only time you are seeing gear are left overs or when they toss you a bone. DKP is the most fair system and you can keep track of it in guild notes or 3rd party websites.
Grats Holy Paladin on Azuresong Mageblade?
Cool opinion. Too bad the majority of hardcore guilds don’t care about 15 years ago. Why do you care how I have fun?
Uh… read again carefully.
I don’t. I’m bored and responding to comments on the forums is a way to pass time until work is over and I can go home and play the game.
I couldn’t disagree with this any more. Since players are given the power to prioritize their own loot over the needs of the raid as a whole, you end up with dudes hoarding their points to take an item they’ve been eyeing even if it would be more beneficial to everyone in the raid if it went to a different player (like a main tank, or your most skilled healer…). This is the dilemma of a raid leader- for competent raid leaders, most of the time they DO know better than an individual on how to rank gear because (in a good council) they’re looking at it as an advocate for the raid as a whole, when often the person bidding on an item doesn’t give a damn if they shave 5 seconds off a boss kill by giving it to Player X vs shaving 1.2 seconds off if they take it. They don’t care, they want their loot. Those minuscule percentage increases in performance reallllllly add up over a raid tier, and assuming that all 40 people in a raid group can properly rank gear priority with respect to raid performance at all times under a DKP system is naive. For the guilds often running a pure council system, by the time you’ve cleared the raid 10 times all of those small percentage differences could be the difference between a 45 minute MC clear and a 30 minute MC clear, or the difference between beating an enrage timer or wiping to a DPS check. These situations are unacceptable if performance is your top concern, and this is the type of thing loot council is meant to address. Yeah bad loot councils toss all of this out the window, but to say all loot councils work within an “inside” vs “outside” paradigm is also flat out wrong. Many loot councils are awful and exist for this purpose, but just as many exist with the sole goal of optimizing loot distribution for raid performance.
Another issue I have is you saying it’s less effective to loot council than it is to maintain a spreadsheet of rewards for exact actions. If you have no concern about raid performance and just want to reward people for showing up and attacking stuff, then yeah, a point based system is perfectly fine and needs no changes. However, there are thousands of guilds where raid performance is the most important thing. How do you quantify an individual’s ability to play their class, or their raid preparation, or their ability to handle mechanics, or their dedication and contributions to the guild, or how much one item will benefit X player of Y spec over A player of B spec? Do I take a base amount of DKP and multiply it by their slice and dice uptime for a given fight to get their actual DKP reward to prio loot to the right people? Do I need to come up with custom metrics for every single class and spec to make sure items are being distributed in a way to maximize their impact on the raid? Do I just take raw throughput and ignore the fact that the player was padding the meters and ignoring mechanics so they game the system and get loot prio? What happens if a metric we were using is based off of an assumption that the player is target-dummy tunneling the boss, when actually they were actually offtanking that fight because of a no-show instead? Yeah, definitely not more efficient than loot council.
Just the time that you’d have to spend to come up with metrics that can adequately allow you to account for individual contributions makes it less efficient than just loot council before you even set foot into a raid (and honestly, you’re not going to be able to even define those metrics. Few of the factors that go into good loot council decisions can be broken down into neat, meaningful metrics that would be easily plugged into a point-based system- and incomplete or bad metrics is worse than no metrics at all when you’re making decisions off of them).
This upfront time spent trying to force DKP into a performance-first guild is already less efficient then having trusted, knowledgeable players make the call. Let alone updating DKP for a given raid, what am i gonna do, write an entire program that pulls log data from WCL after every raid and breaks down ability usage, consumables, cooldowns, attention to mechanics, etc etc into strictly defined metrics that I can then use as a multiplier for the base DKP reward of a boss kill or something? Sounds insane (read: impossible) to me, and the knowledgeable players are much more suited to that sort of analysis for something as dynamic as raid performance. Sure even in a good council they might miss sometimes, but it’s better to be off a little bit once than to be off a little bit every raid for 10 weeks.
This claim is fundamentally wrong. In a world where everything is perfectly quantifiable, then yeah, you’re right- you could come up with some ridiculous complex DKP system that also solves the same problem that loot council typically is trying to solve. Unfortunately, that’s not the world that exists. Show me a DKP system and the metrics said system has defined in order to optimize for raid performance better than a competent loot council does, cause I’m very much interested.
People should choose the best loot situation for themselves.
DKP is on the surface more fair for the individual. You will have purchasing power like money. But if you wanna reach higher heights, you need to pool resources, like a corporation.
It isn’t right or wrong, except from your personal stand point of what is the better raid. The cool thing about classic is so many people can beat these bosses at this point you can have that freedom with minimal impact on your experience.
I already did when I posted and realized I was technically incorrect. I decided I didn’t care and left it anyway.
Same here but that doesn’t mean you gotta be like that. Also you need to read what i said. I said server not world. Even then every hardcore guild out there wants world first. 15 years ago is in the past. This isn’t the same anyway because we know how it works.
Quoting myself.
If I really wanted to make some kind of an argument, I’d state that RNG on loot drops is going to decide who gets the firsts, not your loot system. If one guild gets tons of mageblade, toeps, Viskags, etc, they are going to crush the guild that got sorcerous daggers, earth shakers, and vendorstrikes
It’s the standard…?
IDK how retail loot works maybe it’s not necessary anymore?
But especially on old content where you know exactly how good a piece is for each and every class and their talents/builds don’t change.
I can see the upsides and downsides in both Loot Council and DKP.
Loot Council
Upside: Mostly ensures that the good gear is staying within the guild. Has a tendency to prevent someone from taking an item with a superlow drop rate and then just gquitting and going to another guiild.
Downside: A lot of people get passed over for loot, sometimes due to no fault of their own, there could be an bias towards certain people getting loot (concious or unconcious), and can lead to a really bad outcome. This could lead to some other dedicated raiders who aren’t getting geared to look for greener pastures, or the geared people potentially gquitting or otherwise taking a break from the game.
All in all - loot council is good in moderation - Ony Head, Legendaries, and a few items with super low rate drops, with adjustments if you have a certain class who have gone through multiple runs only having 1 or even no items drop for their class. It shouldn’t however apply to things like BoEs, Patterns and Recipes, etc.
DKP:
Upside: Encourages attendance, and performance to get gear, keeps everyone theoretically on a level playing field.
Downside: Anecdotal story: I had heard about a guild that had a number of people stop showing up for a couple of months. They were stuck on some boss (can’t remember which one), and remaining members managed to get it down and continue progression. Suddenly those players came back, with all their accrued DKP from before they left. The DKP didn’t have a decay built in, so they had priority on all new loot once they returned.
Long story DKP also can work, but needs to be managed and have a system in place to prevent exploitation, and doesn’t punish recency over people who have been inactive. This will be very relevant for guilds as the phases continue to roll out, and you have geared players who haven’t attended in weeks getting priority over the ones who have been there week in and week out.
Nah. Skill and knowledge. I know every fight in bwl. Suppression room is going to stop a lot of people. Actually theres a timer on vael too if people don’t one shot him. There are only 2 ally guilds on my server who seem to research strats and played pservers to practice.