What's so unnatural about Order anyways?

Lore Story Forum
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That’s not a point. That’s the accepted reality we’ve all collectively have been dealing with since at least as early as the Burning Crusade.

We’ve been able to discuss the lore beyond “is cool, explosion big” this whole time.

No, you are free to disagree with me.

But we can’t have a lore discussion if your default view is “the lore doesn’t matter, the lore changes, only the biggest explosion matters”.

Being able to control armies is not power now? Arthas never got to count “controls the Scourge” as part of his power?

What are you even on, buddy?

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102

Basically Alysna vs Ashric at the moment

(I’ll see my little Dracthyr butt out now :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:)

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We’ve been able to discuss the lore beyond “is cool, explosion big” this whole time.

Are you this unpleasant in real life? Or only on the internet?

You keep trying to demean me by portraying me as some Michael Bay-type meathead or something, but I don’t think you can argue with what I’m saying. You’re sitting here agreeing that much of the lore is garbage, yet you still clearly care anyway.

And why? Because of the moments that aren’t garbage. The characters, places, and events that resonate with you. I’m obviously - or I thought obviously - being facetious when I distill it down to only what’s cool, but the gist is the same:

When the next huge rewrite happens, when the very cosmos of WoW gets turned on its head, all this garbage about cosmic forces and vague schemes won’t matter very much. The writers won’t care that Ion said, especially when he couldn’t keep it straight anyway. They will care about what people liked. What was cool.

But we can’t have a lore discussion if your default view is “the lore doesn’t matter, the lore changes, only the biggest explosion matters”.

Why not? You aren’t even trying to deny that the lore changes so frequently now that keeping up with it is an exercise in futility, and that’s what I’m saying. I don’t say it out of a lack of interest in the lore, but from an acceptance in its increasingly erratic state. It’s how I learned to stop worrying and love the retcon.

Being able to control armies is not power now? Arthas never got to count “controls the Scourge” as part of his power?

Being able to literally create and control armies is the same as having them serve you now? Arthas’ command of the undead was an expression of his power, not just a result of it.

Whatever. The Burning Legion destroyed “countless” worlds under Sargeras, but I’m sure you’ll say that all actually belongs to Zovaal - even though he carried out none of it, and the Nathrezim infiltration was Denathrius’ idea.

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If your sole definition of pleasant is only liking big explosions, then probably. I like other things far more. In fact, I tend to avoid very big explosions IRL.

You would absolutely hate me.

I have argued against it. Repeatedly. You do not engage with it.

They tend to also not be about big explosions!

You mean like the last rewrite when the player base just craved to see the Horde being painted once again as the ultimate immoral villains unworthy of redemption and once again had the efforts to make peace between the factions relegating to snippets in books and dev statements?

That stuff people liked and the writers brought back to focus on again?

Yeah, no. They don’t judge based on what players liked. They judge what they keep and what gets tossed based solely on what their next story requires.

Yes, if their next story requires revealing Zovaal was some weakling all along and could barely hold his own in a 1v1 duel against a centaur, they will certainly write that in the future.

But we’re not in the future, and we don’t know what that future will be.

We know the lore as it stands right now. That lore is that Zovaal’s power level is described as “Titan ++”.

That is the lore, and no amount of explosions change it.

The reason we can’t have a lore discussion if your default view is “the lore doesn’t matter because change roflmao” is because you literally have the stance of not discussing the lore.

So was Zovaal’s.

I thought the strength of the army under your command did not matter.

Now it does I guess.

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I think because a lot of us like to discuss or argue the lore from what we think it is now.

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106

Me and a few others have a very simple stance. We’re here to discuss the lore AS IT IS CURRENTLY WRITTEN

I’m not here to discuss what ifs, maybes, should or could have happened, etc. Discuss what is written and what is currently lore, or don’t bother.

But that’s me

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107

I dunno, I feel like the retcons are bigger and more frequent lately than they used to be. Since about Legion, they’ve really been coming thick and fast.

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108

Are they though?

Or is lore just getting fleshed out and moving in a direction you don’t like?

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We can quibble about what constitutes a retcon, but I don’t think it’s debatable that changes have been happening faster of late, whether you call them retcons or deepenings.

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Retcons, hard and soft, have been a thing since the earliest days of WoW, but I agree they are more frequent. I’d push the start date back to WoD for the acceleration. That’s when Chronicles started coming out, making active changes to the lore in broad strokes. That’s when the idea that the orcs were only evil because of fel was destroyed. Heck, a lot of the AU-Draenor stuff changed things small or large about what we thought we knew about MU-Draenor.

But I wouldn’t disagree if you feel Legion was the bigger acceleration.

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I agree. Ever since The Chronicle changed from 'a definitive lore guide’s to ‘from the Titan’s perspective’.

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112

I’ll be honest? This is why lately, I have zero emotional attachment to the whole Faction Pride thing some posters like to go on about. I am enjoying DF and my dracthyr and I’m going to be sticking to discussing lore I find worthy of my time to discuss.

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Snerk

/10char

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114

Question is, is it good dragon meat or Bad Dragon meat? Curious minds want to know :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

(I’ll see myself out now :blush:)

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115

I love you both, just so you know.

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116

In a lot of ways chronicle as presented was a mistake. It would of been fine if this was D&D and you were giving people a resource to pull from, but to set so much lore in absolute stone for a live service game was a bit crazy. It inherently boxed them in, so recontextualization was likely the smart move even if I hate not knowing stuff for 100% sure.

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This is going to be a long expansion.

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At least we’ll be having fun along the way :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

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119

In the words of Team Four Star

POWER LEVELS ARE BS!!!

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I like other things far more.

Like what? YA novels? CW shows? Spare me.

You would absolutely hate me.

Hey, I’m glad we found something to agree on.

I have argued against it. Repeatedly. You do not engage with it.

What point haven’t I engaged with?

They tend to also not be about big explosions!

I have literally not mentioned explosions once. You keep mentioning them up in an attempt to prop up a strawman of me.

You mean like the last rewrite when the player base just craved to see the Horde being painted once again as the ultimate immoral villains unworthy of redemption and once again had the efforts to make peace between the factions relegating to snippets in books and dev statements?

The Horde has never been portrayed as “unworthy of redemption”. They are redeemed every single time.

And do you know why? Because the original redemption of the Horde was one of the most poignant and successful plots in the original Warcraft games.

We know the lore as it stands right now. That lore is that Zovaal’s power level is described as “Titan ++”.

I directly countered this by showing, with a source, that Ion contradicted himself on the same day with a mutually exclusive description of Zovaal’s power. Ion also said he was “Titan-level”. You have completely avoided addressing this, so let me be a little more direct:

If you cannot explain why Ion saying Zovaal was “Titan-level” is any less the Word of God than Ion saying Zovaal was “Titan Plus Plus”, don’t bother replying to me with another long-winded spiel about how dumb I am.

The reason we can’t have a lore discussion if your default view is “the lore doesn’t matter because change roflmao” is because you literally have the stance of not discussing the lore.

You can discuss something without believing it really matters. I’ve been doing it just fine.

So was Zovaal’s.

And by all means, count the Mawsworn as an part of Zovaal’s power. I don’t think it changes anything.

I thought the strength of the army under your command did not matter.
Now it does I guess.

I would not count it as part of inherent power, but since you brought it up, I addressed it. Was that really confusing to you?