And yet Steve Danuser is the most knowledgable source regarding the story.
He agrees with Ion.
And yet Steve Danuser is the most knowledgable source regarding the story.
If you say so.
He agrees with Ion.
Did he? Where?
If he did, he’s a very silly goose, just like Ion. The fact is that Zovaal did nothing even remotely as impressive as Sargeras, the most powerful Titan we know of. And how could he? Sargeras was powerful enough that the devs knew it would be ridiculous for us to even fight him directly, regardless of how we were “empowered”.
1 Like
Can Azeroth just stay a planet that we live on? Like why does it have to be a she titan, eldritch horror or some super special flake of snow?
1 Like
So, here’s the thing.
A creature’s power-level is not subject to how interesting they are. It’s not related to how many cool moments they had. You are confusing these things as related, when they are not.
Objectively Garrosh had more impact on the story, had more cool moments, made more of an impact overall than Argus. Argus is more powerful than Garrosh.
Sargeras is absolutely more cool and interesting than Zovaal. Nobody with a shred of sanity would argue otherwise.
But we are told that Zovaal is more powerful than a titan. We are told that Sargeras’s actions were actually done because the Jailer sent minions to guide him to those actions. We’re told that Zovaal has been the secret ultimate threat, working behind the scenes, making all the really big bad stuff happen, all with the intent of getting him free so he could reformat the cosmos’s hard drive or something.
It’s stupid. It’s bad. It’s some of thew worst storytelling in a game not known for its peak storytelling.
It’s still the lore.
You are confusing these things as related, when they are not.
Actually, I think you’re misunderstanding me. I’m not saying how cool a character is dictates their power; I’m saying that WoW’s lore is so unstable at this point that what’s cool is all that really matters. They hyped Zovaal up, but once it became clear absolutely no one liked him, they dropped him like a bag full of melodramatic rocks.
When I brought up Sargeras cutting planets in half, I deliberately distinguished between how it was cool versus how it indicated his power. The fact is, Zovaal never demonstrates strength even approaching the raw power to just casually destroy an entire world like that.
You can argue about Zovaal versus Punished Aggramar or whatever, but if you set him against Sargeras? It seems self-evident to me who would win, whatever hype man Ion says about the Jailer.
So if you’re here to not discuss the lore and to only discuss how cool things are… Good on you?
Most of us are here to discuss the lore as it currently stands. If you’d rather have a coolness discussion, make that thread so we all know what you actually want to discuss?
You mean when the expansion ended?
Is pointing out that Sargeras can and has cut entire planets in half, and that Zovaal did nothing even remotely on this scale of power, not “discuss[ing] the lore as it currently stands”? Because you don’t seem very eager to discuss that.
I still like “discussing the lore”, I just also acknowledge that it doesn’t really matter, because the current team have so little concern for maintaining a cogent and consistent story.
1 Like
No, I’m not eager to discuss cool moments in this thread. That is why I suggested if that’s all you’re interested in discussing, maybe a new thread would be more fitting.
Then everyone who wants to discuss cool things and only how cool they are would be able to take part.
Are you just being deliberately obtuse at this point?
I’m not saying Sargeras destroying a planet is cooler than anything the Jailer did. I’m saying it demonstrated far, far more power than the Jailer ever did. You know this, which is why you refuse to engage with it in the same way you did comparing Zovaal to Aggramar or Argus.
Sargeras only cut the void planet in half because Zovaal manipulated him (via proxies) to do so. I did address this. Welcome to three posts ago.
If you really need this, if it will give you some fulfillment:
Sargeras killed a single planet that couldn’t fight back.
Zovaal nearly rebooted all of reality while submitting the world-soul Azeroth, while also fighting a bunch of First One Magic-Imbued, Covenant-Empowered super soldiers.
Zovaal very nearly broke everything, where as Sargeras never came close. Zovaal tapped Azeroth like an oil vien and started draining her magic gunk; Sargeras stabbed her that one time.
I mean, if you really need to compare whose is bigger.
Now can you just make your coolness thread?
That has nothing to do with Zovaal’s actual, personal “power-level”. You know this.
Are you going to tell me the Dreadlords were more powerful than Sargeras, because they were the ones who actually deceived him? Come on.
Zovaal nearly rebooted all of reality while submitting the world-soul Azeroth, while also fighting a bunch of First One Magic-Imbued
Zovaal nearly used the technology of vastly more advanced and powerful beings to reboot reality, you mean. He was incapable of doing that himself. So, why are you bringing it up to prove he was more powerful than Sargeras?
Zovaal very nearly broke everything, where as Sargeras never came close. Zovaal tapped Azeroth like an oil vien and started draining her magic gunk; Sargeras stabbed her that one time.
Not that this has anything to do with their individual power, but Sargeras wasn’t trying to “break” everything. His goal was to prevent the Void Lords from manifesting in the physical realm by destroying any world that could host them. So far as we currently know, Azeroth was the last remaining world soul capable of doing that, and his “stabbing her” did almost destroy her.
Do you even believe what you’re arguing here? It feels like you’re being disingenuous out of spite.
So we have one letter from a quest that no longer exists, where a mage trainer is treating the warnings of magic as something to be ignored. VS, all the other lore of unchecked Arcane power, mages wielding powerful artifacts, Magocratic societies, entire ethnic groups of people dependent on the consumption of mana. Almost every single tragedy to befall Azeroth being heralded by a mage in the pursuit of more magical power.
Yeah, I am going to go ahead and say that my post still stands.
1 Like
Buddy. You’re here trying to argue the lore is only the cool moments, that the power of an individual is limited to the size of the things they break.
I’m trying to engage you in this limited parameter.
If you don’t like it, we could just go back to the actual lore and not your weird interpretation of what it can and cannot be.
Make up your mind.
5 Likes
Zovaal has a power that no other WoW villain has. As soon as his name is brought up in the lore, I tune out.
6 Likes
Zovaal has many mysterious powers. More than any other villain in the franchise.
Who else has such might as to be completely overshadowed by his subordinate that got defeated in the very first raid? Whose story held such tremendous weight as to drag all other stories into the lightless depths below even the Maw with them?
Sargeras broke a single planet.
Zovaal broke the entire lore of the game.
Zovaal is mightier.
6 Likes
You’re here trying to argue the lore is only the cool moments
I guess that clears up whether or not you’re being disingenuous.
Do you think World of Warcraft’s current lore is stable and maintains a cohesive, consistent story?
that the power of an individual is limited to the size of the things they break.
Outside of “Word of God”, the power of a character can only be judged by the feats they display with it, yes. You seemed to understand that fine when discussing Aggramar or Argus, but the second it didn’t work in your favor, it’s a ridiculous idea.
I’m trying to engage you in this limited parameter.
What you’re trying to do is to avoid admitting you were wrong, because that is the only thing that matters on this forum, not “discussing lore”.
Nobody does. But we still accept that what is and what is not lore is not defined by cool moments.
But it didn’t contradict anything I said. Outside of word of god, we only have deeds. But word of god is still the canon state of things. This is how the WoW story department, such as it is, is run.
We have word of god stating that Zovaal is a “titan ++”.
That is the canon state of things.
It doesn’t matter how big his explosions were, how many things he broke; it’s still the canonical state of the actual lore.
It doesn’t need to be cool to be lore.
But I’m not wrong.
You created the artificial criteria to define what is and is not canon power levels as “but how cool is it and how big of an explosion was it?” Nobody else has used that definition.
Deathwing did more damage to Azeroth than N’zoth. Is Deathwing more powerful now?
Heck, Deathwing did more damage to Azeroth than Sargeras, and all Deathwing had to do was wake up. Sargeras intentionally stabbed the planet; Deathwing woke from a nappy and did a couple fly-bys. Sargeras ruined a single zone and mildly damaged six others. Deathwing wrecked more.
Is Deathwing more powerful than Sargeras? I mean, comparing their nearest comparable feats, Deathwing can do casually what Sargeras could not intentionally.
This is why your entire argument is ridiculous. It puts nonesensical standards to power levels.
A mana bomb blew up Theramore. That’s more rampant destruction in a single act than Arthas managed. Are mana bombs more powerful than Arthas? Are catapults more powerful than Arthas? Catapults destroyed Teldrassil after all. Arthas never destroyed anything remotely close to what those catapults did.
Believe me, if you want to use this sub-par, artificial argument to determine power levels, you really don’t want to see how Sargeras stacks up.
Now. Your whole “breaking things is power level” argument is sufficiently debunked. Again and still.
Would you like to actually talk about the lore, create that cool moments thread I suggested a while ago, or should we keep going?
2 Likes
You cant judge a character’s strength or ability by their Deeds, as it is inconsistent. in WC3, Tyrande held off an entire army of Scourge by herself in the Plaguelands. Until the bridge gave way and she was swept down river, where she still evaded capture, slaying wave after wave of undead attack until her allies defeated the Scourge there, AFTER defeating Illidan.
Meanwhile, in BFA. Tyrande “Empowered by the Nightwarrior” struggled with Nathanos and a couple of Val’kyr.
So… If you are talking about power level, the most you can do is speculate, and it seems to me that the closest thing we have to a consistent metric is inferences made on age, experience and profession.
2 Likes
Nobody does.
Great, cool. My point is that the lore changes so often that the world has no verisimilitude or real bedrock, and as a result, what’s cool and memorable ends up dictating both what is remembered and where the lore goes in the future - which is why we won’t be hearing about Zovaal any time soon.
And we certainly won’t be hearing about how he was so much more powerful than the Titans, who are still relevant.
We have word of god stating that Zovaal is a “titan ++”.
The same God also said he was “Titan-level” on the same day in a different interview. You claim Danuser backed up the “Titan Plus Plus” assessment, but you didn’t provide a source, and probably never will.
But I’m not wrong.
Glad you clarified.
Deathwing did more damage to Azeroth than N’zoth. Is Deathwing more powerful now?
Sargeras stabbing Azeroth was never my example of his personal power. You’re just bringing up random nonsense now.
Believe me, if you want to use this sub-par, artificial argument to determine power levels, you really don’t want to see how Sargeras stacks up.
Oh, I’m sure Sargeras would stack up pretty well with this “sub-par, artificial argument”, considering you clearly couldn’t think of an example of another entity obliterating a planet in a matter of seconds.
I’m trying to be (relatively) civil, but your petulant, unwarranted attitude is really starting to grate on me. You were using in-game fights to argue that Zovaal was more powerful than the Titans before I even entered the conversation. That was apparently fair game, but bringing up his raw physical power is somehow childish - as if the ability to physically destroy worlds should just be discounted in a discussion about power levels.
Your whole “breaking things is power level” argument is sufficiently debunked.
I want you to explain, in your own petty little words, what a “power level” is. It’s apparently not a judgment of a characters own inherent power, since you’re including schemes carried out by underlings when it suits you. So, what’s your definition?
Would you like to actually talk about the lore
What would you consider this if not “talk[ing] about the lore”? Does it only count when someone agrees with you?