Who cares what people are doing at those levels? The game was never intended to be pushed that high, it was just corruption stacking that broke the game. Any team comp is more than viable on a more reasonable level.
When they got rid of most trash mobs dropping loot, people stopped wanting to fight them, and just moved point to point.
And then inflation kicked in, and if trash mobs dropped enough to cause people to bother to kill them, it would only get worse.
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I don’t mind the concept of dungeons that scale up in difficulty. But I don’t like the timer in M+ and I don’t like seasonal affixes. The former makes everything rush, rush, rush… and that in turn causes more deaths and wipes and animosity. And the latter is, frankly, a bit dull. You spend week after week dealing with the same affix, and if you aren’t enjoying that affix, it can become a bit of a grind.
I also don’t like optional bosses or skips. I like doing dungeons, and skipping bosses or even entire sections doesn’t sit well with me.
I also think that the visual appeal of a dungeon matters. It’s why my favourite dungeons of all time are Cata and Wrath dungeons. They were visually spectacular, and so varied. Even once I’d outgeared the Wrath dungeons, for example, there was still a part of me that enjoyed being in them.
I like bosses that have 3 or 4 mechanics that you better not ignore, or you’ll wipe, rather than 8 mechanics (most of which you can just push through with a good healer).
And you can see, from the above, why I haven’t been that into BfA dungeons. Which is a shame, because the 5-man format has always been my favourite part of the game.
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I have lots of agreement. Leveling dungeons are more fun to me than gogo Mythics… or any level capped instance for that matter. The atmosphere is just completely different, much more laid back. Timers suck
This is an issue with WoWs fundamental design of always giving us more power as the carrot to chase.
Yes, because WoW is an RPG and that’s the fundamental gameplay loop.
You do dungeon. Get loot. Get stronger. No longer need to do that dungeon, because it’s loot doesn’t make you stronger.
But because WoW is also an MMO, you also have to offer players a reason to continue playing, which is why M+ exists (and is a really good system for WoW as a whole).
The only issue is that it puts a limit on dungeon design, you’re kinda limited with certain mechanics that don’t scale very well, and we saw this in early Legion with stuff like Blackrook Hold on Necrotic or Sanguine weeks, or Darkheart Thicket where Xavius would just one shot you, so the kill was basically your classes with immunities popping them and praying he RNG’d onto an immunity.
But the idea that a dungeon can exist and be hard on it’s own merit for more than a week or two after it’s introduced is a fantasy. Like HM Mechagon was super difficult when it was released, and the Immortal HM Mechagon even moreso.
But now, because we’ve gotten gear, the only challenge in either of those things is people hitting the Mechagon buttons in the correct order. Do it twice in a row? Congrats, you win. Enjoy your shiny new mount. Any other error in the rest of the dungeon is completely irrelevant.
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You are putting too much effort into convincing people who do not want to change their mind.
Typically what goes on at the top levels is reflected in normal levels, too, and that is the case here. Let’s use as examples the classes that are switched out in the top runs, Demon Hunter and Hunter - but we’ll look at the 100,000th best in the DPS rankings, instead of at the 1st best.
The #100,000 DPS Demon Hunter has an IO of 1485.8, composed of 10 timed runs and 2 untimed completions out of 12. The #100,000 Hunter has an IO of 1441.7, composed of 7 timed runs and 5 untimed completions out of 12.
If you look at the entire page of characters in each case, the #99,981 to #100,000 Demon Hunters combined have only about 45 untimed runs figuring into their IO scores, while the #99,981 to #100,000 Hunters combined have about 80 untimed runs figuring into their IO scores.
The data relevant to normal players tells the same story as the data from the highest runs: the timer favors melee DPS, because ranged DPS are designed for a more deliberate, careful style of play, and don’t do as well with the timer.
If you want to see the data for yourself, the relevant IO pages are here:
`https://raider.io/mythic-plus-character-rankings/season-bfa-4/world/demon-hunter/dps/4999#content
`https://raider.io/mythic-plus-character-rankings/season-bfa-4/world/hunter/dps/4999#content
I agree with everything except the reason being it’s an RPG. It’s part of WoWs fundamental design, and probably couldn’t be changed at this point without alienating vast chunks of the playerbase. What the OP wants is something I think a fair number of us want, but it’s likely never going to be found in WoW. This is why I’m looking forward to Pantheon and seeing if they handle this better like they are trying to do. Assuming the game ever makes it to release of course.
The gameplay loop is identical to any RPG with dungeon elements.
But as an off-the-cuff example, do you respect enemies in Witcher 3 nearly as much as you do when you have 10 levels on them, as opposed to when they have 10 on you?
Same concept really, the only difference is instead of being level 20 vs level 10’s, you’re level 40 vs level 40’s designed for characters half, if not less, as powerful as you are.
We both agree here though.
You are not taking class population into account, the #100,000 of a less played class will always have lower IO, is an arbitrary data point that is meaningless.
Even then, the difference being 3 timed runs and 3 untimed is nothing, you can make up for it in 1 day of play time.
Um, the dungeon pace is set by the party. The idea that retail only has timed dungeons is ludicrous. If you are rushing in retail but going slow in classic, thats on you because guess what, you can, and people do, reverse that. You can easily speed through classic dungeons just as easily you can take your time in retail.
This remind me of a bad relationship.
Except 3 BM hunter is the best comp if you want to speedrun the dungeon.
For ARPGs yes. More in depth RPGs however not so much. I also play a lot of RPGs on the tabletop as well, so if the only RPGs that you interact with are video games from major publishers I can see why you would think that.
I think there should be a timerless mode, where people could practice dungeons at their own pace for reduced rewards. Some people learn that way best.
It should be queuable. Pick your desired dungeon and level of difficulty, with the requirement that you could only increase by +1 level over the same dungeon previously completed.
But elites object to this, partly because they wouldn’t use it and think that nobody else would. After all, only elites matter, right? And they think people who want to learn that way - because they know they are slow learners and want to learn at their own pace without inconveniencing people who want to time keys - shouldn’t have that opportunity. The game should only be for elites who are fast learners, and anybody else, screw them.
Is the game about communication in groups or not? I guess not. You’re not supposed to communicate and plan strategies at all. “Hey, let’s watch this video and see how they handled it” said no one in a timed run ever.
That seems the case,when the mythic dungeon first came out it was a challenge to complete and quite fun. Then came the difficulties ,then levels ,this wasn’t a challenge now it was a complete mess.
You can do that now(minus the selecting your key), just ignore the timer and take your time to plan and learn the run. Then you can do it for real with a lower level of the same dungeon.
Nope. You’re limited to the key you have, so you get next to no practice. And unless you have an incredibly rare assortment of friends, they won’t be on the same page as you for every dungeon.
People will join expecting you to be perfect no matter what you put in the description, or maybe because of it, because they think people who do this deserve to be trashed.
I want to be able to repeat a dungeon at a level until I feel comfortable tanking it. There is absolutely zero opportunity for me to do that in the game.
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