Well that and the trespassing on most of the Hordes own moral standards.
Well, I can’t really say you’re wrong about this. Even I don’t like this rebellion, but am forced to support it on principle and lack of alternatives.
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Orcs suffer from a similar issue to Tauren, there are currently no well developed leaders. The biggest named ones have died or have now been ruined to the point of no return. Of all the ones mentioned, and you weren’t able to mention anyone besides Thrall, its a quest giver who only just entered the narrative, a major character in two zones who shows back up from time to time, an old quest giver with a nice title, and a WC3 character thats just come out of retirement who’d much rather be left alone.
None fit well, but its no time for Thrall again. I wouldn’t want the one who setup this roller coaster of Horde leadership by putting Garrosh in charge despite opposition, ignoring Garrosh’s aggressive tendencies, did nothing when Cairne died, close to nothing when Vol’jin went back to his island, didn’t care about the war until the rebellion was in full swing, refused the mantle of Warchief, lost his abilities when finally fixing the problem he caused and gave up Doomhammer, and then just went off to Nagrand cause he was done. Thrall hasn’t proven himself a capable leader for the Horde since Wrath. Its time for fresh blood in there.
The Drek’thar suggestion was that Thrall take over for him. Guy’s in a wheel chair and needs to be carted around…
As for the warchief question I agree that there is no one lined up to take it. Though at this point I’d be ready to throw my hands up and give it to Lor’themar if we really want a singular leader still right off the bat. Even then it could just be ceremonious or simply be an emergency powers sort of thing. Nothing says we need a warchief here and now.
It’ll be up to the rest of the races to come to terms with the Forsaken how they see fit, and the Forsaken with them. A singular warchief dictating that isn’t going to solve any underlying issues. Currently, there is even little reason beyond Baine, Saurfang, and Thrall, for the Horde to dislike the Forsaken. Lor’themar admits the people are behind Sylvanas and the war. I’d love to see more integration of the races in each of their day to day activities, but there isn’t as big of a gap between them as you might perceive.
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Yeah, cuz he’s never allowed to be in the Horde for more than a patch in the post-Cata era. If he was actually allowed to actually “lead” anything, we could see if he’s still capable of it. He treated the Forsaken more than fairly given their penchant for duplicity and the fact they had a dreadlord heavily involved on matters pertaining to their leadership.
As for new blood, I’ve been preaching it for months, brother, and I won’t stop anytime soon. I’ll continue to make threads for the express purpose of giving shout outs to Thura and Jorin Deadeye.
I love Lor’themar, but by god, no more elf Warchiefs. We’re the Horde not the Alliance, we’re supposed to be primitive and savage, not formal and sophisticated, we don’t need anymore elfies/dead humans infecting the Warchiefdom. What we need is for Vol’jin to come back and bring balance to both sides of the faction.
And how they see fit is distrusting and holding deep-rooted skepticism of their intentions. It’s the Forsakens’ job to take the necessary actions to absolve themselves of this perception.
Yet there is even less reason for the Horde to like the Forsaken, so much as trust them. Thanks to things like Wrathgate, Sylvanas’s use of blight in Gilneas, her stated discontent with Vol’jin’s coronation, her duplicitous behavior during the events of Warcrimes, making deals under the table with an evil entity during the war against the Legion (one that was actively working with the Legion as we find out later), murdering of innocent Forsaken in BtS, and her irresponsible use of blight at the BfL.
Yeah, but why tho? Because Lor’themar said so?
There’s the one massive gap of living and unliving. You might not think it’s a big deal, but it is. Undead do not have the same moral values as the living, there is a massive ideological and psychological difference between the two.
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How many times has the Alliance dealt with that Tree being corrupted?
Why is it so hard to believe that the Alliance would take such a suggestion as it becoming corrupted again seriously?
If only there was a connection between the Alliance and Horde that was built on mutual understanding and trust. Guess Anduin Wyrnn and Baine Bloodhoof were framed by Sylvanas as having a good friendship across faction lines.
Would they have just burned it on the Horde’s say so? No, but there would have been serious investigations. Any corruption would have been found and measures taken to deal with it. (Sic the PCs on it!)
No, hoodwinking Saurfang into leading an invasion of Ashenvale and Darkshore just to burn the Tree full of Civilians and kick start a war just to deal with that Tree being corrupted for the upteenth time as opposed to alerting the Alliance to the danger is utterly moronic.
Now if overtures to the Alliance had been unsuccessful (like after slaughtering the Desolace Council in front of Anduin) and the danger was that serious (Is that Azshara trying to release N’Zoth?), then forcibly relocating the Civilians and burning an empty tree with the full knowledge of your (Horde) allies (Saurfang, we have a serious problem!) could be workable. But that ship sailed (and sunk) in the pre-patch.
This is my favorite screenshot I’ve seen when it comes to conversations that overlap Stormheim and Nazjatar:
Going to be honest I just saw your post and posted in response. I didn’t look past to see other conversations. And I get that Gilneas had it’s own issues and really both were preoccupied so there wasn’t anything malicious from Genn about it. He just wanted to protect his people over his neighbors.
And I think there wasn’t a blow back against Quel’Thalas from the Forsaken because both Lordaeron and Quel’Thalas were decimated by the Scourge. Thus the Forsaken come from both nations, and Sylvanas being seen as the one to save him made them more accepting of their elven neighbors over the southern ones.
Horde’s ridiculous story in BFA caused me to switch to Alliance for the first time in over 8 years. I’m quite enjoying it actually. It’s nice to have real buildings and architecture for once.
Nothing. I don’t believe the horde should exist and have thought so since WC3 and the retcons.
At this point, the damage is done. Nothin’ they can do with the story will convince me to play Civil War 2: Blight Edition. The moment Saurfang chose to mope in the Stockade instead of declarin’ mak’gora I lost any respect for the Orc.
Even if he comes out and declares mak’gora in the final War Campaign quest, my only thoughts will be - “Yeah? Where was this a year ago? Sit back down gramps.”
If I ever return to Retail, every Horde character I play would side with Sylvanas purely out of spite for Blizzard pushin’ this garbage.
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This is the most Blood Elf male post I’ve ever seen. Impressive.
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Cool, so why did you even respond to this thread?
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I’d argue he wasnt allowed for good reason. Narratively, he had the opportunity become Warchief again. Vol’jin offered and Thrall declined. Then he went to go see his dad, kill Garrosh, sink into a melancholy, and then never be seen again throughout Legion after giving up Doomhammer. He was allowed, and disappointed. But lets bring Thura or Jorin in, I’m all for it. The traitorous trio just needs to go.
Aside from primitive being a very loaded and subjective word, I wouldn’t dare live in Stormwind with what I know of Medieval European “sanitation,” the Horde now is not the Horde of Classic. We have two strands of regal elves, industrial goblins, noble trolls, harmonious pandaren. Savage, ruthless, or “primitive,” and elf are not mutually exclusive. I am sure the Rangers and Farstriders would have something to say about that. Lor’themar would simply hold seniority among the racial leaders and military leaders left.
You’re using all of this knowledge that we know and applying it to the other people monolithicly. Wrathgate is well known, but how much is the Blight in Gilneas? Did the other leaders really know how she felt about Vol’jin? Only Lor’themar had reservations. Warcrimes is kept largely under wraps, so is during Legion, BTS, BfL is debatable but not seen in a completely negative light. However all that the Forsaken have done is the Wrathgate. Sylvanas has personally ordered or actively played a part in the rest. With her gone, what blame is left to put on the shoulders of the Forsaken as a people? It does not particularly matter why the people are in this instance but they are. Why? Probably because of the war, because they have felt the ever present threat of the Alliance, regardless if was always there or not.
However, there is no more a difference between a Forsaken to an Orc to a Nightborne, to a Zandalari. The Horde comes from drastically different backgrounds and they are played out time and time again. My point is that there is nothing that the races could not bridge and start to mend rifts. The people of the races, those who matter and have been apart of the Horde for some time now, dont hold as large of animosities as I think we come to believe at times.
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No he wasn’t, he didn’t get to be anywhere near the Horde until BfA, unless you’re talking about WoD? The expansion itself was a disappointment. Thrall hasn’t had a chance to go back to the Horde with a clear conscious, and actually take charge of the situation.
Yeah, let do it bring em ba-. Hey wait a minute, I see what you did there.
Well how does the rest of the Horde know they can trust them? How do they know they won’t hold any bitter resentment for the faction, for its’ part in disposing of Sylvanas, and plan some form of vengeance upon people who they deem wronged them? It’s in their nature to be vengeful, is it not?
The Alliance has and only ever will be a threat to the Horde so long as the Horde constantly wages war against them. It’s the whole reason why it was formed in the first place.
If the Forsaken don’t want to be hunted by the Alliance, they should stop going out of their way to cause them suffering. BfA’s premise wasn’t caused by “old hatreds being renewed”, it’s caused by the Forsakens’ violent antics. If the Forsaken weren’t running around showing the Alliance just how much of a constant threat they are to its livelihood, the Alliance would have nothing to worry about.
They are undead, they see the world far differently than an Orc, a Nightborne, and a Zandalari. They live a cursed existence as unnatural abominations left in wake of the Lich Kings’ death to seek out a purpose for themselves. A purpose which seems to always deduce to inflicting their curse upon others and to cause suffering and misery. Because they simply can’t find something productive to do with themselves for some reason. Like, why not seek our a cure for their condition. If a Val’kyr ritual can make Nathanos look human again, perhaps they can revert them back entirely to life.
I’m not saying they can’t build that bridge, I’m saying the Forsaken are the ones who need to take that first step on the bridge. Because they’re the ones who will ultimately make it across or destroy the bridge.
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There is nothing Saurfang and co. can do that would convince me to be on their side. I want nothing to do with them.
I’ll take being on the side of “genocidal maniacs, super villains, scourge 2.0” or whatever the Horde is being call every 5 min over joining a traitor (Saurfang), an Alliance sympathizer (Baine), or a wimp too busy feeling sorry for himself (Thrall). I have embraced everything Sylvanas has done and so far she hasn’t done anything wrong and it feels like the Horde is finally being honest what it is.
I don’t care if the Horde are the villains, because the target is the Alliance and the attack on Teldrassil was a long time coming because the Alliance has shown time and time again how they can’t rein in their %@$# for anymore than 5 min. I have no sympathy for what the Horde does to the them and to me the Alliance isn’t an alliance, or an empire, its a cult one with a higher body count than the Horde will ever have and I would like nothing better for it but to die.
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There’s having an opinion and then there’s making $hit up. We all know that’s not true, dude, and it never will be.
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What are your favorite races?
Dwarves and night elves.
I also have interest in the human nations outside of Stormwind like Stromgarde, Gilneas, and the living Lordaeron folk.
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So just to clarify a few things here because I think were taking different approaches at this. In the narrative, Thrall had the opportunity to return fully into the Horde both as Warchief and leader of the orcs but declined. He suggested Vol’jin be Warchief as he was the one to lead the rebellion. This is where I come from. The story gave him the chance and he declined it. After Legion he then went off to Nagrand to live in peace. Where Aggra is I have no clue, lets hope they’re not in counseling with Nils Beerot.
Could the writers create a circumstance or way for Thrall to have been apart of the Horde the entire time or been off doing something? Sure. Could they make a circumstance now that brings him back in? Sure. However they need to address this major characters absence from the Horde in a meaningful way. I simply suggest instead of allowing that, or just making Thrall the spotlight again, that we essentially clean slate it and bring in some new characters. Not to suggest we get rid of Thrall completely, I do like him, but just perhaps as the new leader of the Frostwolves or Earthen Ring.
So in what I had suggested, what is required of me to switch sides is for a discontent among the leadership of the Forsaken, and likely some of the people themselves, in how Sylvanas is leading the Horde in that the war effort is unsustainable. So there would be little, if any, resentment towards the rest of the Horde. Resentment would likely lie in the leaders that spurred the rebellion more than anything. At the same time, in this moment, I dont think the rebellion really has any sort of standing force. So who is there to really despise for “losing the war” since that is what their resentment would, theoretically, take the form of?
Individuals like Faranell might have something to say being head of the Apothecary, and therefore blight, about the other lacking conviction or pragmatism to achieve their goals, too soft hearted, but I cant see that for everyone. Again, I see little resentment in my own ideal switch here as it is for the betterment of the Forsaken, and Horde.
This isnt a what we know about the narrative question. How does the Horde perceive themselves in the face of the Alliance? The Horde was created as a band of races who currently exist in a hostile world. That hostility came from centaurs, other trolls, naga, Scourge remnants, and the Alliance. It is in this context that a Horde identity is formed. They are suffering, constantly under attack, hated, and have no where else to go.
This isnt to say the Horde is perfectly innocent. The Alliance has good reason not to like the orcs, or trolls, or even Forsaken. However, this is the “new Horde” which has “removed” itself from the old Horde the Alliance previously fought against. To these members, they are innocent and were being unjustly attacked, and have been, for years now. This isnt a right or wrong argument, but a matter of perspective. Enemies exist in the Alliance, real or imaginary, and shown very clearly for the Horde.
So here again we’re making a monolith out of the Forsaken. We see in BtS that all Forsaken are not the same. They are productive. That some want to just live out their “lives” and make things, or read books, or maybe just die already. There are archanists, doctors, blacksmiths, fungus farmers, cockroach… breeders(?) and so on. This is a problem with the Forsaken narrative as a whole. What Sylvanas does, since she has been the face of the Forsaken, the Forsaken do. The Forsaken also just have a narrative of struggling to survive as a nation until Cata anyway. That they needed to be overly militant and ruthless to survive and then take care of Arthas. In addition, they are the proper heirs of Lordearon so it does not surprise me that the narrative went into reclaiming, often violently, the rest of it for themselves to have a home.
Now its also stated that had she succeeded in Stormhiem that she would have solved the Forsaken’s plight. How? Couldn’t tell ya. However that idea, that concept alone, speaks to the fact that even Sylvanas isn’t all about pain and misery.
Besides, mindset of a 10,000 year old elf, possibly immortal, is also hugely different than an orc with a life expectancy of… 50? There are radical differences between being alive and being unalive, but also between being 30 and being 300, or 3000. Bridges aren’t built just from one end however. With the exception of the Wrathgate, the Forsaken have proven themselves to be loyal members of the Horde and quiet often an open people and often give their support when asked. Remember Garrosh sent them in as cannon fodder to Gilneas and was continuously willing to. Burning that bridge can come from either side as well.
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Medivh and Arthas led to many deaths. Genn is to blame for every death at Teldrassil. And Tyrande shares that blame for harboring the assassin and his people.
A lot of the Horde’s massacres are shared with the Alliance.
Oh sorry, maybe next time Medivh should’ve let the Gurubashi trolls destroy his home and kill his friends and family.
Medivh who was possessed by Sargeras since he was an infant and Arthas who was possesed by the spirit of Ner’Zhul and a demonic sword their actions weren’t representative of the Alliance and are more of a case of bad seeds. (Or being corrupted by a former Horde Warchief)
Ah, there’s the CW moon-jumping logic I remember. It’s been too long since you made such a spectacular feat of mental gymnastics.
Sometimes I can’t tell if you’re serious or not with your absurd Sylvanas/Forsaken victim complex.
It brings great pleasure to say this; Now let me tell you how you’re wrong
- Sylvanas had already since destroyed the “assassin’s” home, unprovoked.
- Sylvanas had already slain a majority of the “assassin’s” people, unprovoked.
- Sylvanas had already since made an assassination attempt on the would-be “assassin”, resulting in the death of his son, unprovoked.
- Sylvanas had called the Horde back with little warning and left the Alliance, along with the “assassin” and the Alliance king, to die.
- Sylvanas had abandoned the war effort against the Legion to make deals with an enemy and to further her own agenda. Therefore the “assassin” had his justification to assassinate.
- If it weren’t for Sylvanas, Tyrande wouldn’t be harboring the “assassin” and his people because they wouldn’t be refugee’s thanks to Sylvanas destroying their home.
Any more contrived, nonsensical, victim blaming you wish to partake in? Maybe it’s also somehow the Velen’s fault that the Draenei were slaughtered by the Orcs or the Alliances’ fault that Draenor was sundered by Ner’Zhul, heck maybe it was the Alliance that caused the Cataclysm? Any more BS, and you’d have enough fertilizer for every farm in the world.
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