This is why Legion was a much more enjoyable expansion than most others. It got the player character more involved in the story. Also why I think ffxiv is a better RPG than WoW by a longshot.
Not sure why they decided to push them to the back again in BfA, but I suspect a few choice egos were involved in the decision making.
first of all, that wasn’t treason, genn abandoned the alliance because therenas didn’t wanted to kill all the orcs.
Same with quelthalas.
Or what, they are traitors too? why forsakens aren’t angry at quelthalas then?
No, gilneas abandoned the alliance of lordaeron.
why they would need to risk their people to save them?
the alliance is not the horde and literally every nation can do what they want.
It was kind of the same thing in MoP if you really think about it. For both sides and everything.
I’m not going to lie, this is the most fair suggestion I’ve seen so far.
Except for this, what would be the point of Thrall leaving again and what would this accomplish? You even set it as a mere footnote in your post, like, you even know that there’s no reason for him to leave aside from being associated with the rebels.
In your scenario, Saurfang would’ve already died and Baine would be stepping down, so why would Thrall need to go? All it does is leave the Orcs leaderless again until some dev mentions in a tweet that Eitrigg is their defacto leader. They’d be better off killing Thrall at this point if he was just going to leave again, there’d be no point to his continued existence aside from being an ex-machina.
No, Thrall needs to actually stay this time and become a part of the Horde again, whether as its’ Warchief, a faction leader, or otherwise. Thrall was once a great character and definitely can be so again if given some time to actually stick around.
When I reread my post after a couple of times I realized I left a hole for the orcs and just never went back to address who would lead and thats as good of a question. How I outlined the Tauren right now would be my default answer and create something along those lines. Eitrigg would be good, Cromush has proven himself and is not prejudiced against the Forsaken like we see with some (not that its the expectation that orcs are, but still), even Rexxar or Nazgrel. Admittedly I play Orcs less than I do a lot of other Horde races so others Im sure can give decent suggestions.
To Thrall however it isnt exactly leaving and never to be seen again off in Outland, or dying, or coming in an out, but its also not giving him a strong position of power within the Horde. Perhaps a new leader of the Frostwolves? Drek’thar is getting up there in age and we could use another Orc voice for them. He could be another large Horde voice within the Earthen Ring. The organization needs to remain neutral, but it certainly should be a Horde heavy one.
I think I leave enough room for Thrall as I do for Baine or Sylvanas. They could die, they could be actively apart of another story, they could be connected to he Horde, they could not be. The minimum requirements however is to move forward creating something new, not going backwards and try to catch someone up.
I was joking.
chuckles No he hasn’t! All he’s done is be an announcer for invasions (and an absolutely $hitty one at that, he sounds like if Admiral Akbar had a mentally impaired younger brother), he’s done absolutely nothing else. Being unprejudiced against Forsaken isn’t the only qualification one needs to be a good Orc leader.
Prejudice against the Forsaken has been thoroughly earned by their untrustworthiness and insubordination, and very little about that has changed. Having their leader as Warchief who is an enabler for this duplicitous behavior doesn’t make it any less wrong for other races to hold strong reservations for them. It’s the Forsakens’ job to prove themselves to the other Horde races, not give everyone more reasons to discriminate against them.
Both whom strongly support Thralls’ vision of the Horde.
Why is that a bad thing, I recall no prejudices he holds against the Forsaken. Then again, after this expansion, everyone in the Horde will. It’s almost like the Forsaken need to own up to the problems they cause.
The dude who literally declared his intention to never help Forsaken? How is he better than Thrall, exactly?
If the story wasn’t trying to hurry itself along, I’d be inclined to agree with you. If we had some time to develop Vol’jin as Warchief and to see how the Horde works under his rule. The problem is, we didn’t have that, he got killed off before he could do anything and then shoved Sylvanas in all our faces, and already we’re losing all the progress the faction had gained at MoPs conclusion. The only thing that was left, funnily enough, was the Forsaken more officially integrating with the rest of the Horde, before the faction could feel like it was whole.
No, we actually need back up a bit and try it again only slower and more coherently. And if we’re not getting Vol’jin back, then we need someone to facilitate that integration, and Thrall is that person.
Legality doesn’t matter here, stop bringing it up. Gilneas stopped being bound by the laws of Lordaeron when they left. Furthermore, what laws do you think the Forsaken have kept over from the reign of king Terenas?
This all sounds like a bunch of excuse making. From the perspective of the Forsaken, they should be pissed at them. The elves didn’t send help until it was too little, too late. When the elves were slaughtered by the Scourge, only then did their shattered remnants attempt to help.
If we’re placing blame on anyone, wouldn’t Quel’thalas be most at fault since they had the capacity to help until it was too late but didn’t? Whereas Gilneas was dealing with the Worgen outbreak?
Do you think Sylvanas cares about whether or not Gilneas left the Alliance after WC2? Do you really think her reasoning was a reprimand of leaving the Alliance 20 years ago? Or was it more corpses for the Sc-, I mean, Horde?
Your bias seems to be blinding you in this regard and thus you frame it as a retaliatory action and are willing to go back as far as two decades before the start of WoW in order to find a reasoning in order to support this conclusion.
Glad we agree that Sylvanas is not free of blame either for her crimes against the Alliance and it is totally justified to militarily reprimand her no matter how long ago those were. Because legally speaking the Alliance was right to attack the Horde in Stormheim. Because of the legality.
I can’t remember the name but it’s some kind of cloak that makes you look like Saurfang in his disguise or some such.
In Vanilla and now Classic it was revealed that there were humans who died outside the gates of Gilneas trying to seek sanctuary from the Scourge. They were killed and raised into undeath because Gilneas did nothing to help them. Not hard to see them hating Gilneas for it and in the wake of the creation of the Forsaken, with people possibly swapping stories it’s rather easy to image all the anger they have towards Arthas and the Scourge being spread out towards anyone who failed to help them.
Now in regards to the OP there is nothing that can be reasonably done at this point to make me want to switch from Team Saurfang to Team Sylvanas.
It might not matter to Gilneas, it certainly matters to Lordaeron. That’s ultimately who it matters to- the aggressor. No-one’s going to say ‘that’s our bad, go ahead, attack our army, we’ll be even’. It’s not to appeal to them, or their allies, but for it to be justified to the aggressor’s forces, as well as explain it to any third party.
In addition, approaching it as though it mattered to other parties enters a philosophical core with no real answer, which is; ‘are the people who were of Lordaeron, who died in Lordaeron and were raised into undeath, still Lordaeronians, or something entirely different?’. Perception isn’t just important to themselves, nor is it unanimously agreed on by everyone who observes them because they said so. The Forsaken may see themselves as rightful people of Lordaeron, complete with property and everything associated with sovereignty, but the Alliance and Scarlet Crusade may see them as a force like the Scourge to be removed from Lordaeron.
It would be abhorrent to march on sovereign soil to oust its occupants, were that they seen as much, though to the Scarlet Crusade (and, probably the Alliance, given their supportive role with them) did not see them as such (as evident by the physical means the Crusade use.).
So it comes down to; for the sake of argument, would you see them as people of Lordaeron and accept their right to form and manage their own government?
It’s only excuse making if you don’t like what you’re being told.
From the standpoint of a character in that situation, I can’t really. Lordaeron and Quel’thalas went down like a 1-2 punch. Their history wasn’t so hot, but even after the worst had happened, they still did alleviate much of their burden (Sylvanas for leadership, Quel’thalas proper for aid against the Scourge in the Eastern Kingdom’s northern reaches) and made the attempt, as opposed to Gilneas, who simply shut their gates and denied people in their moment of need. In the grand scheme of things, it wouldn’t had helped, because they were dealing with the Worgen issue and there was no shelter, but from their standpoint, they just turned people away and sent them to die in the woods.
Did Sylvanas care? Probably not, but she’s not the only driving force in their army. This is a civilization that lived and died as the Alliance, Gilneas breaking off was a huge deal for them. Again, even Varian Wrynn, another human from another kingdom, got on Greymane’s (profanity) about it when he tried to get back in. It was very much a big deal, and it’s certainly cause for reprimand two decades later.
It isn’t bias that drives me to say ‘Gilneas wasn’t entirely without fault’. It’s me being factual in that they have done wrong before. I’m getting the impression you don’t feel the same way with the Scourge-lite comment.
Here’s the meat and potatoes.
That the Forsaken hold Gilneas is enough for Gilneas to want to wage war. That was part of the belief that peace would be impossible.
In this big game of ‘whodunit’ and assigning blame, the common accusation is that the Alliance resumed the war by attempting to assassinate Sylvanas in the middle of a ceasefire, prompting the Horde to retaliate.
Can Gilneas justify to themselves the purpose of waging war? Absolutely, and that’s a good thing, because in compelling conflict stories, both sides believe they are in the right and that neither side is the bad guy, but the main point of contest, the very center of this thing, was who threw the first punch in the middle of a ceasefire, which was Genn.
That’s treason.
That is what an alliance does. They extend themselves for the benefit of others that they are joined together in.
I find it funny that Blood elves did the exact same thing only they ended up up in Arthas’s warpath as well, yet the Undead don’t seem to hold that against them.
They never Served terenas, and had no obligation to stay in the Alliance if the didn’t want to, it is what makes it an Alliance and not like the Horde.
I guess it might be because they also ended up in Arthas’ warpath… even though Quel’Thalas might be the most at fault for the Scourge’s success, since they started with the dismantling of the Alliance and all that.
At this point? Nothing.
But if the rebels had opposed Sylvanas from the burning and not gotten the Alliance involved then I’d have sided with them.
Saurfang and Baine’s actions are what drove me to Sylvanas. And now Lor’themar’s too.
‘Oh hay night elves your tree is corrupted you need to leave and burn it’ -from the horde
yea… that woulda worked…
I was Horde before, and the only reason why I jumped the fence in the first place was because of Sylvanas. At first, I simply didn’t want to be on the same side as her after Cataclysm, but then when she became Warchief, my ‘vacation’ away from the Horde became permanent.
If she ends up dying, I would probably go back to the Horde since their races interest me a lot more. My favorite races Alliance-side either get 0 attention or are the universal punching bag of the mythos.
No is not treason, the alliance is not the horde.
they can leave whenever they want
Yes, and if something doesn’t like them, they can just go.
that is why dalaran left, that is why jaina left and returned.
that is why kultiras left as well.
no one in the alliance has any authority to punish them unless that nation or person directly attacks the alliance.
People cant understand the alliance is an optional thing not the hordes once you are in you are in forever and arent allowee to exist outside the horde.
Indeed.
Voljin’s rebellion did not seem so detestable. Garrosh tried to kill him. Garrosh was being horrible to the non-Orc races of the Horde. Garrosh was a bad leader that needed to be taken out because of what he was doing to the Horde, as well as the world.
The current Horde rebellion, though, is dominated by what Sylvanas is doing to the Alliance, and Horde characters being sad about that.
Saurfang was moping at Teldrassil and became more sad every day. Baine could not allow Jaina’s brother to be a victim in Sylvanas’s schemes. Anduin of all people has to give Saurfang a pep talk and the freedom to lead a rebellion.
Right or wrong, there is a lot to dislike in this current rebellion, and not much to actually like.
This was already discussed and I said that yes, it’s easy to see the average Forsaken having a grudge, just like they might have a grudge against Quel’thalas too. But we found out the reason why Gilneas didn’t help is because they were dealing with their own issue. So from the metanarrative standpoint, which was my original contention framing it as Genn being mad about being retaliated against for his decision to leave the Alliance a couple of decades before Cataclysm even happened is nonsense.
It sounds like excuse making because because it is making an excuse for Quel’thalas’ refusal to help Lordaeron. The real reason why Forsaken wouldn’t have a problem with it is because 90% of them are adherents to Sylvanas and will blindly follow what she says, despite the dichotomy of the Forsaken insisting that it is their free will that separates them from the Scourge. If any Forsaken did have an issue with Quel’thalas, once the Blood elves joined the Horde and Sylvanas vouched for them, any would be afraid to voice discontent lest the Dark Lady hear about their indiscretion.
I actually like Forsaken lore but this is the issue I take with it. I like their thematics but dislike their over-reliance on Sylvanas. One could say that it is a character-flaw of their race that you can take or leave. I think it makes more sense for Forsaken to exist as a democracy or some sort of weird ancap society rather than a dictatorship because of their central thematics of willpower and dubious morals.
I’m hazy on the details of the book, I think it is wolfheart, in which Varian Wrynn cusses out Genn. But being cussed out for something like that is fundamentally different than being invaded and then having territories blighted and having civilian populations worked literally to death.
I think military reprimand is absolutely out of the question. Not only do I think it is unjustified in this instance, but it’s just diplomatically unsound. If you believe that Gilneas owed some sort of reparation to Lordaeron or existing Alliance powers for leaving that is one thing, and asking for a formal apology or restitution would be another thing entirely than what the Forsaken did.
So yes, even if you believe Gilneas was wrong to leave the Alliance after WC2 because of an increased tax levy the Forsaken absolutely crossed several lines they shouldn’t have to the point that it would overshadow any wrong Gilneas supposedly did. The blighting and the slavery didn’t happen by accident or were unknown to Sylvanas. The Forsaken tend not do anything without the Dark Lady’s explicit consent unless they’re a traitor to begin with.
Your impression is correct because I don’t believe leaving an organization that wants to overtax you because of a decision you fundamentally disagree with (housing and rehabilitating a dangerous alien enemy) is a moral wrong. There were other reasons too I’m sure, Genn being stubborn and isolationist at the time probably wanted that for an excuse but I think it is a good excuse. Better than Quel’thalas’ saying the Alliance allowed their forests to be razed by the Orcs and thus it was a failure of an organization when they really just wanted to get out of the pact they made with Strom during the Troll Wars.
I don’t make the Scourge-lite comment lightly either. Because that very much seems the direction Sylvanas intends to take ever since the Edge of Night. What we priorly believed to be a desire to propagate the Forsaken as a race now seems to be tied to an ultimate battle between the forces of Death and Void. She saw something in the Shadowlands, probably something Arthas saw, and wants to unite the world in undeath. That is what I believe her motivation is. I don’t think Sylvanas cares about petty things like Gilneas leaving because of taxes. She wanted more corpses to increase her undead army. Why she blights huge swaths of potential units is probably cutting losses since she doesn’t have the same necromantic might the Scourge had.
We can agree on this. The crux of my original comment on your post was that you didn’t seem to be granting Genn and Gilneas the same leeway that you granted Sylvanas and the Forsaken in their justification. Framing it as him being mad at being retaliated against is something I disagree with since I do not believe what Sylvanas did was retaliatory in nature in any way.