Now this thread is mostly directed to Horde players since we’re the ones suffering from split-factionidus right now, but Alliance players are free to chime in.
So what I mean by this is what would the opposing side to yours’ (Saurfang or Sylvanas) need to provide for you to switch to their respective sides?
For example, as a “muh honur” guy myself, if Sylvanas were to cut back on the civilian murder, gather some ruthless non-Forsaken Horde figures like Kargath or Magatha, and come up with a more compelling argument for fighting as opposed to “The Alliance attacked me, now go clean up the mess I made.”. I can definitely see myself siding with her.
I just simply don’t care about the Forsaken’s’ plight, nothing about solving their problem of being unnatural abominations has anything to do with me or any other living race on the Horde. I’d need a representative from my own or likeminded race to give me something to work toward, and for starters, a living being with living needs. My living Orc has no reason to invest in to the unliving desires of the undead.
And no, having one side join the other is not a valid argument. (As in have Saurfang “nut up” and join Sylv or vice-versa) As that goes against the idea of having a “side” in the first place.
Quick answer: I’m only against Sylvanas because I don’t know her reasons, she wont tell me, I see nothing of her, and Zappy boi gave me a quest.
Long answer: I would jump the fence if Sylvanas actually let on to her reasoning behind some events that have already happened…cough teldrassil, ashvane, lack of being anywhere near these fights, the husk of Xal’atath cough… She may have said it in a cutscene to Saurfang/dying elf, but I need some quest text.
Nothing because they basically butchered what was left of the Honor Horde this expansion.
The Honor Horde (Thrall’s Horde) never really had a good track record to begin with, since it pretty much accomplished nothing of narrative significance for the game’s first 3 xpacs. Then we had Garrosh. Then Voljin for Wod. Then Sylvanas. As for the individual characters, Baine has never been a compelling character. Thrall keeps coming and going too often, and him “fixing” things at this stage is really more just saying that the Horde can’t function without him (but, he keeps abandoning it, so…). Sadfang stopped being respectable the moment he started having to redeem his honor in Anduin’s eyes.
Maybe they should have developed the honor horde a bit more before this expansion. Maybe they should have found a better story-line for it than to have the main characters run crying to Anduin and Jaina to solve their problems. Why play a faction when it’s leaders are too incompetent to solve their own problems?
As it turns out a toy is enough for me to betray my warchief. In all seriousness if it wasn’t for the toy I would have stuck with Sylvanas because, from the Horde point of view, she really has done nothing wrong. Short of going full Garrosh and actually betraying her allies I wouldn’t turn against her. So far all she’s done is achieve victory for the Horde and no amount of nebulous “muh honour” moping from Saurfang really justifies betraying her. Especially given he was the one who planned the entire attack in the first place. He’s a traitor.
my horde toons would have choosed honor horde, with saurfang.
but then saurfang decided to kill himself twice, do nothing in the hopes that the enemy defeats your faction so they can stop sylvanas.
instead of, you know do it yourself
and root in a cell while your troops are dying in a war that he started
That is why my horde toons would have changed sides to sylvanas.
And then we have the baine problem. while i do kinda respect what he tried to do saving derek.the fact that he basically already saved twice basically the current biggest threat of the horde that saved the alliance from defeat 3 times already and recently sacked one of their allyes.
that and the fact that after the death of rasthakan his first instint is surrender and run to cry to jaina is kinda… hum… pathetic.
because he, and the horde now depends on her mercy.
So, what the honor horde should have done?
Saurfang should have decapitaded sylvanas the moment she decided to burn the tree.
Baine should have put derek out of his misery and challenge to a makgora sylvanas.
and then tries to deal with a very angry alliance. with either fighting defensenly or showing some good faith in the hopes of ending the war as soon as possible.
Now That would be respectable and make me “jump fence” to their side.
but i guess the moment for that is over.
I agree with many of Sylvanas’s stated points - to say nothing of her hidden motives, of course.
The simplest thing would be having Sylvanas do something catastrophic to the Horde. Turning me against Sylvanas. But that is not really turning me to join the other Horde team on its merits. I’d be joining Saurfang and Baine more out of a lack of options.
To get me to join team Saurfang…
If he got Anduin and Genn to make a formal apology for Stormheim and pay restitution. If Anduin and Genn walked into Orgrimmar with a formal apology, and handed a big check to Sylvanas because of Saurfang’s diplomacy, he would be redeemed in my eyes.
In A Good War, Stormheim weighs on his mind. If Genn and Anduin acknowledge their fault and attempt to make amends for it, I think I can agree with Saurfang.
They would need to stop undermining the Horde’s leadership over ideological differences. You can be critical of the actions of your leadership without turning traitor. I’m having a hard time seeing a reason that I would join them that doesn’t boil down to “abandoning your rebellion” so I hope my answer covers it.
Just to further clarify, I’m asking people who side with Sylvanas what Saurfang would need to offer them (physically/ideologically) to convince them join his side and people who side with Saurfang what Sylvanas would need to offer them (physically/ideologically) to convince them to join her side of the argument between the faction.
I don’t want to come across as rude, I just want everyone to be on the same page here.
Baine’s head on a platter would be nice. In all seriousness, being forced to help Baine kill Forsaken characters with no way to refuse, or being forced to then help him escape because he’s represents “the best of the Horde” felt almost as miserable as being a Night Elf in BfA.
To me the Thrall’s Honor Horde is at its best when it treats all members of the Horde equally, and by treating Forsaken as second-class and endorsing Baine’s murder spree (not to mention all the dead Horde as a result of prolonging the war by both Saurfang and Baine) just makes any claim they have to the leadership of the Horde somewhat of a hypocritical joke.
“Murder spree” is a bit of a strong term there, no? I mean, I’m not saying that just because I’m biased either, I’m saying it because that’s a really strong term for murdering 3 officers and some dark rangers.
And the thing is Forsaken are kinda second class through their own volition. I’m not saying it’s their fault that they are perceived the way they are, but it is their problem that they have done nothing to dispel this perception of their race since theh originally joined the Horde in an “alliance of convenience” and “harboring no true loyalties to their allies.” Right now they’re only first class because the Warchief is Forsaken and she obviously is going to favor her own race above the others, but the fact remains that the Forsaken have yet to prove themselves to the rest of the Horde and that’s what keeps them being treated as second-class.
I’m not here to harp on the Forsaken, but that’s just the fact of the matter. The Forsaken have never been officially absolved of Wrathgate and other negative perceptions of their kind, it was all put on hold because of the whole Garrosh thing and the only reason they aren’t made to answer for it now is because they now hold dominion over Horde.
Must…resist…arguing…point…
They’d need to have a claim to leadership for it to be a joke.
I thought the Horde had perfectly valid reasons to continue the war that the Alliance started when they launched a surprise attack during the Legion invasion, hitting a Horde army and trying to assassinate the Warchief. I think just about any nation in history would find those to be compelling reasons to fight. So I never had a problem with the war itself, just with how it was prosecuted.
But the inconsistent writing and sudden escalation to murdering a defenceless city are about ten miles too far for me.
But the thing is, Blizzard hasn’t given me a compelling reason to support Baine or Saurfang, because the last thing I want is for the Horde to ever be subordinate to the Alliance. Saurfang is effectively an Alliance stooge at this point, and Baine always was. Baine has also been depicted as weak and in need of rescuing since his first appearance in this franchise.
So I have been very much in the “goes to the beach instead camp” throughout this expansion. Don’t wanna work for the super villain. Don’t wanna work for the Alliance lackeys.
To make me change to supporting Sylvanas? Well, if the destruction of Teldrassil was accidental, or better yet done by the Alliance themselves to deny it to Sylvanas, and the civilians evacuated. And better still if Undercity came first.
To make me change to supporting Saurfang and co.? Have Saurfang bust out of prison on his own, and make Baine’s rebellion a response to Teldrassil, not to Derek freaking Proudmoore.
I think its funny that people rather support a genodical regime, than work with the enemy but keep saying, Killing civilians is bad, but I dont want to do anything about it.
What I’ve really wanted out of Saurfang and Co. this whole time was for them to recognize how recklessly they are endangering the entire Horde by prosecuting a civil war in a period of time when the Horde is said to be losing badly. They may have grievances with the Warchief, and they may even think she cannot remain in the position. But whether they wanted it or not, the Horde is now neck-deep in this war and has no negotiating position. If they want to negotiate, they’d have to bring the war back to a stalemate at least - demonstrate to the Alliance war hawks that an invasion of Orgrimmar is untenable.
If Saurfang et. al. made a decisive showing of force to demonstrate that they will support the Horde in the war even if they do not support the leader, and they are willing to fight to turn around the dire situation, I would support them even if they did require Sylvanas to step down as Warchief, maybe run a War Council until the conflict is concluded and they can decide what they want to do for leadership. However, thus far Baine, Saurfang and Thrall have basically been shown to be Alliance sympathizers, and I cannot side with them as long as that persists.
SO you want to prop up a genocidal regime, you want to win a war where the major war goal is to completely destroy and kill every single member of the alliance. But killing civilians is bad? See where the logic falls apart?
Well let me tell you starting a war and the actions taken DURING said war are different beasts entirely. Also, we read the books. That doesn’t mean my character agrees or the way it’s presented to me since the books have been consistent.
This is why Sylvanas should not have been warchief, and the forsaken story should have never been in the center. It doesn’t make sense, the forsaken are to niche.
Saurfang… could’ve decided that Anduin was worthless for not killing Sylvanas at Lordaeron, and snapped Anduin’s neck on the way out his cell. That would have been a start, anyway.
Since I dislike Sylvanas, but I’m still cold on Baine, I will do both
Sylvanas’ side should have given us a better reason for war. Genn’s attack might have been bad but nuking an entire city full of innocents was disproportionate. The war lead up was way to quick and should have had both sides commit equal atrocities to work. Also I need to see Sylvanas at least put on a convincing act of caring about the Horde. Right now she comes across as Skeletor screeching that he’s doing a great job of fooling He-man into an Enemy Mind situation directly behind He-mans back. Not even a few paces back just right over his shoulder screaming “once He-man has fufilled his purpose will destroy him! Hahahahaha!”
Baine and Saurfang just need to get on their big boy panties and stop being sad all the time