What would cause you to consider teldrassil repayed?

[Finalchaotic-hyjal (Finalchaotic)]

As I said above: Lumping “All Highborne” together, is guilt by association.

Kollux specified Blood Elf Highborne, which you further specified with Dath’Remar Sunstrider. Dath’Remar Sunstrider and his followers were not guilty by association. They were in group of mages that were summoning the Legion before the Legion turned on them and abused them. Dath’Remar Sunstrider and his followers, the ones that would become the Blood Elves, were just guilty, and hence needed the redemption to make up for it.

I would like to know how it is any different than who I replied to, or your own comment?

There isn’t any difference. Nyumbani was making an association fallacy in using the very guilt by association you’re bringing up. To use your format, Nyumbani was saying:

Highborne Night Elves summoned the Legion. Alliance has Night Elves. Therefore the Alliance summoned the Legion.

Which is factually incorrect.

Kollux specified Blood Elf Highborne, which you further specified with Dath’Remar Sunstrider. Dath’Remar Sunstrider and his followers were not guilty by association. They were in group of mages that were summoning the Legion before the Legion turned on them and abused them. Dath’Remar Sunstrider and his followers, the ones that would become the Blood Elves, were just guilty, and hence needed the redemption to make up for it.

were just guilty, and hence needed the redemption to make up for it.

Here is the issue. Again, dismissing said redemption. Let me explain it another way: If someone does something wrong, they are guilty- Yes? Now, if said person does something to make it right or correct their wrong, are they guilty or are they not? You admit (as did I) that, regardless of the circumstances, this took place BUT it is what happened AFTER, that people are ignoring. This is still guilt by association, by the definition of connecting qualities that would later come about in his ancestors. Hence his comment after, that went on about “this” continuing into when humans were taught magic by said ancestors. I can re-quote his post if you like.

and did so again teaching humans magic so they could kill your fellow trolls?

Just to make sure you know: It was the HIGH ELVES that taught humans magic. Hence his claim. So- Is the Highborne innocent and thus, association fallacy can not be applied. Or are they GUILTY and thus, there is no fallacy and it is a fact that they “were the same people then, as they were now”? Unless you are having a problem understanding what this conversation and thus, my original post, was even addressing?

Dath’Remar Sunstrider and his followers, the ones that would become the Blood Elves

How is this part of your comment, literally, any different than what I explained above? How exactly do you figure, aside from dismissing his redemption, that his ancestors, over 100’s of years, are just as guilty as he was? I seem to be going around in circles with people who are so used to using guilt by association that they don’t even realize it.

Highborne Night Elves summoned the Legion. Alliance has Night Elves. Therefore the Alliance summoned the Legion.

Which is factually incorrect.

May want to reread everything. Again.
PS: The Night elves in the Alliance, are not Highborne. They were not upper class society. The poster was referring to the Highborne (upper class society) Aka Sunstrider aka Horde.
The Night elves are lower class or commoners, if you will. These are those who formed the rebellion and became Alliance.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

Hence his comment after, that went on about “this” continuing into when humans were taught magic by said ancestors.

I would suggest you follow your own advice and reread everything again:

see, a few years back I would have retorted that night elves were responsible for much more death by first bringing azeroth to Sargeras’ attention

Before the nightborne, you do realize that the bloodelves aka the HIGHBORNE were the ones that attracted demons to azeroth, and did so again teaching humans magic

The Elves that would be Blood Elves continued to do this by practicing magic, regardless of the generations that separated the Highborne that actively summoned the Legion and the High Elves that taught Humans magic. By teaching the Humans magic, the High Elves completely negated both their redemption of joining the Night Elf Resistance and the point of their Runestones to hide the use of magic from the Legion, and resulted in needing to create the Council of Tirisfal to deal with the demons that their continued use of magic was once again drawing to Azeroth.

Hence, the Elves that would be the Blood Elves continued to be guilty of the very thing Nyumbani wanted to call all Night Elves on.

Nyumbani was saying:

Highborne Night Elves summoned the Legion. Alliance has Night Elves. Therefore the Alliance summoned the Legion.

Which is factually incorrect.

The Night elves in the Alliance, are not Highborne. They were not upper class society. The poster was referring to the Highborne (upper class society) Aka Sunstrider aka Horde.
The Night elves are lower class or commoners, if you will. These are those who formed the rebellion and became Alliance.

Indeed. These are the very facts that make Nyumbani factually incorrect.

[Finalchaotic-hyjal (Finalchaotic)]

Hence his comment after, that went on about “this” continuing into when humans were taught magic by said ancestors.

I would suggest you follow your own advice and reread everything again.

see, a few years back I would have retorted that night elves were responsible for much more death by first bringing azeroth to Sargeras’ attention

The Blood Elves continued to do this by practicing magic, regardless of generations separated the Highborne that actively summoned the Legion and the High Elves that taught Humans magic. By teaching the Humans magic, the High Elves complete negated both their redemption of joining the Night Elf Resistance and the point of their Runestones to hide the use of magic from the Legion, and resulted in needing to create the Council of Tirisfal to deal with the demons that their continued use of magic was once again drawing demons to Azeroth.

Hence, the Elves that would be the Blood Elves continued to be guilty of the very thing Nyumbani wanted to call all Night Elves on.

the High Elves that taught Humans magic.

Which was done under the threat of death. Anasterian Sunstrider (great grand son of Dath’Remar) and now High king, was given a choice between being slaughtered by the Amani trolls or give away their birth right. He had little choice. I don’t feel that this “choice”, as per demanded by Arathor, should negate something that happened with his great grand father. That also dismisses any wrong doing that was done by Arathor and thus, Alliance. Also blaming the son for the crimes of the father. Even when redeemed. This is, by definition, association fallacy. And it is complete nonsense.

Hence, the Elves that would be the Blood Elves continued to be guilty of

I already explained the situation behind why the High elves taught humans magic. If I need to post an actual quote, then I will do so.

As far as it’s consequences- that is nearsighted, to claim that it is only allotted to a specific race of elf. Wells in general, are a draw for the Legion. One could say that, because Elves use magical founts of energy, they should be wiped off of Azeroth. But that would apply to ALL elves and I am sure that isn’t your point. Is it? Or are we going to pretend that the Nightborne have nothing in this very conversation we are having?
Meaning: That the Legion has attacked every single Well that has ever existed. The Well of Eternity, the Nightwell, the Sunwell etc.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

Humans were definitely at fault as well, at least if the High Elves warned the Humans that using magic without Runestones or Nordrassil hiding its use would draw the Legion.

All people using magic would be considered guilty, or that was the entire plot to Malygos’ Nexus War.

[Finalchaotic-hyjal (Finalchaotic)]

Humans were definitely at fault as well, at least if the High Elves warned the Humans that using magic without Runestones or Nordrassil hiding its use would draw the Legion.

All people using magic would be considered guilty, or that was the entire plot to Malygos’ Nexus War.

Point being that, even if there was a danger, he had little choice in the matter. Humans have abused magic, since gaining that knowledge, far more than elves ever have. The fact that a human mage trying to drown an entire city full of innocent people is ignored but we are debating if the Highborne are responsible for ushering in a force that was effectively defeated. By a Night elf demon no less.

[Syriyna-amanthul (Syriyna)]

Kollux specified Blood Elf Highborne, which you further specified with Dath’Remar Sunstrider. Dath’Remar Sunstrider and his followers were not guilty by association. They were in the group of mages that were summoning the Legion before the Legion turned on them and abused them. Dath’Remar Sunstrider and his followers, the ones that would become the Blood Elves, were just guilty, and hence needed the redemption to make up for it.

I don’t think this is a fair accusation. The War of the Ancients novels have Dath’Remar tell that he and his associates, when they rescue Tyrande and finally join the rebels, had been covertly resisting the Legion entry into Azeroth, secretly undermining the maintaining of the portal to limit what the Legion could bring through and doing so while having Legion commander’s literally looking over their shoulders. They hoped that Azshara would come to her senses and turn on the Legion but finally gave up when the rescued Tyrande and fled.

There is some credibility to that claim. It took the Legion a very long time to stabilise the portal enough to start bringing through any strong demons beyond grunts, slowing down the Legion’s progress by bottlenecking their entry into Azeroth and the bulk of the spellwork done to maintain and strengthen the portal was handled by Highborne. It was a point of extreme frustration for the Legion leaders. The NE defenders would have been facing a much larger and deadlier Legion army if the portal had been stabilised and strengthened earlier.

I also wouldn’t be too quick to blame them for hoping Azshara would come good. The army Ravencrest first raised against the demons had most soldiers believing Xavius was fully behind it and wanting to go to the capitol and save Azshara. The NEs loved her to a crazy level.

More over, the Legion wasn’t abusing the Highborne. They were being left alone by the Legion. The Legion was slaughtering the commoners and non Highborne nobility. Dath’ramar actually put his people at more risk by switching sides.

Either way, even if they needed redemption, what they did to slow the Legion easily provided it, particularly since by doing so they had to risk their families as well. I would actually argue that it was a damn heroic act on their part since there was massive risk involved.

People often credit the NEs for being righteous in resisting and fighting the Legion but in truth, most NEs got no choice in the matter. The Legion just marched out and started killing people. Their defiance wasn’t one born of a moral decision but of survival.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

Point being that Nyumbani was claiming that the Night Elves of the Alliance, who were not the people who attracted the Legion, were the people closest to them. Which is factually incorrect, and if were are to look at the race closest to the people who did attract the Legion, that would have been the Blood Elves even before it was also the Nightborne.

[Finalchaotic-hyjal (Finalchaotic)]

Kollux specified Blood Elf Highborne, which you further specified with Dath’Remar Sunstrider. Dath’Remar Sunstrider and his followers were not guilty by association. They were in the group of mages that were summoning the Legion before the Legion turned on them and abused them. Dath’Remar Sunstrider and his followers, the ones that would become the Blood Elves, were just guilty, and hence needed the redemption to make up for it.

I don’t think this is a fair accusation. The War of the Ancients novels have Dath’Remar tell that he and his associates, when they rescue Tyrande and finally join the rebels, had been covertly resisting the Legion entry into Azeroth, secretly undermining the maintaining of the portal to limit what the Legion could bring through and doing so while having Legion commander’s literally looking over their shoulders. They hoped that Azshara would come to her senses and turn on the Legion but finally gave up when the rescued Tyrande and fled.

There is some credibility to that claim. It took the Legion a very long time to stabilise the portal enough to start bringing through any strong demons beyond grunts, slowing down the Legion’s progress by bottlenecking their entry into Azeroth and the bulk of the spellwork done to maintain and strengthen the portal was handled by Highborne. It was a point of extreme frustration for the Legion leaders. The NE defenders would have been facing a much larger and deadlier Legion army if the portal had been stabilised and strengthened earlier.

I also wouldn’t be too quick to blame them for hoping Azshara would come good. The army Ravencrest first raised against the demons had most soldiers believing Xavius was fully behind it and wanting to go to the capitol and save Azshara. The NEs loved her to a crazy level.

More over, the Legion wasn’t abusing the Highborne. They were being left alone by the Legion. The Legion was slaughtering the commoners and non Highborne nobility. Dath’ramar actually put his people at more risk by switching sides.

Either way, even if they needed redemption, what they did to slow the Legion easily provided it, particularly since by doing so they had to risk their families as well. I would actually argue that it was a damn heroic act on their part since there was massive risk involved.

Well said. One thing that stuck out the most to me, about him, was (aside from his appearance and being seen as the ugly one, according to Highborne standards) but how he outright quotes:
“The queen…She is mad.” When most people would have never dared to say anything “negative” about their queen. Not including his actions.

They were being left alone by the Legion.

Yes. As per the Queen’s deal with the Legion. Dath’Remar was even offered to be turned into a Satyr by Xavius. This offer is what made him realize (and effectively, turned the tide for him).

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

@Syriyna-amanthul

More over, the Legion wasn’t abusing the Highborne. They were being left alone by the Legion.

Not all the Highborne. I’d normally put this in my own words, but I’m just going to copy paste this from Wowpedia since it’s very late right now:

“Highborne worked feverishly to widen and stabilize the portal they had opened into the Twisting Nether, so that Sargeras could use it to reach Azeroth. They abandoned all their other studies of the Well; they hardly slept, if at all; and they ate and drank so little that they became skeletally thin. Even so, Sargeras’ lieutenants were displeased with the Highborne’s slow progress and proved quick to slay spellcasters who faltered in their duties. Many of the Highborne broke free of Sargeras’ influence and realized that they had made a foolish choice in serving the Legion. Although Sargeras had made glorious promises, he had provided nothing but grueling and thankless work. It seemed likely that instead of rebuilding the world, Sargeras intended to destroy it.”

Dath'Remar Sunstrider

[Medeniks-saurfang]

I agree accept, those responsible need to pay. Nothing less than we Horde cleaning our own mess and restoring our Honour will do. We all need to heal. As alot of bad has been done. By both sides.

[Finalchaotic-hyjal (Finalchaotic)]

More over, the Legion wasn’t abusing the Highborne. They were being left alone by the Legion.

Not all the Highborne. I’d normally put this in my own words, but I’m just going to copy paste this from Wowpedia since it’s very late right now:

“Even so, the Highborne worked feverishly to widen and stabilize the portal they had opened into the Twisting Nether, so that Sargeras could use it to reach Azeroth. They abandoned all their other studies of the Well; they hardly slept, if at all; and they ate and drank so little that they became skeletally thin. Even so, Sargeras’ lieutenants were displeased with the Highborne’s slow progress and proved quick to slay spellcasters who faltered in their duties. Many of the Highborne broke free of Sargeras’ influence and realized that they had made a foolish choice in serving the Legion. Although Sargeras had made glorious promises, he had provided nothing but grueling and thankless work. It seemed likely that instead of rebuilding the world, Sargeras intended to destroy it.”

They most certainly did work the Highborne, as slaves.

[Syriyna-amanthul (Syriyna)]

Point being that Nyumbani was claiming that the Night Elves of the Alliance, who were not the people who attracted the Legion, were the people closest to them. Which is factually incorrect, and if were are to look at the race closest to the people who did attract the Legion, that would have been the Blood Elves even before it was also the Nightborne.

A bit splitting hairs. Use of magic was just as prevalent amongst the common folk as the Highborne. The main difference was that the Highborne were the queen’s favoured. It was a class difference.

The only reason the Highborne specifically were more involved was because they were directly involved in studying the well. That wasn’t something the common NEs had any issue with. There wasn’t some fundamental behavioural difference.

Yeah if your taking that viewpoint then all elves have a tie to that. The same logic could be used to argue that Dreanei lead the Legion to Dreanor since it was traces of Eredar magic that lead them to the orc homeworld while hunting Velen. In truth it is pretty irrelevant.

However I wouldn’t argue that the Blood Elf ancestors are really any more responsible since it was hardly their idea to summon in a demon army. It was the NE society as a whole that empowered a corrupt queen to summon the Legion.

So yeah, Nyumbani’s wrong but I would say that the Night Elves and the Blood Elves are pretty much in the same boat there. Frankly it is the Nightborne who probably are more sketchy, not because of summoning the Legion, but because they only did something about it when they felt themselves threatened.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

My point was mostly that Nyuambani was wrong, and Finalchaotic ironically came in to encourage Nyumbani by saying:

Someone else being dishonest, shouldn’t discourage you from championing a faction that you know and understand.

Everything else was tangential that at the very least was worthwhile conversation to have on the side.

[Orcguy-altar-of-storms]

Prove the absurdity of “Human Potential” by proving once and for all that the “Kaldorei Potential” is WAY more ridiculous; as they single handedly destroy the entirety of the Horde by themselves (proving they don’t need no stinking Alliance; they’re a strong independent race that take no guff).

The Night Elves spent decades failing to take back Ashenvale, the forest right next to their capitol city filled with their animal friends and magical talking trees. Then these (thousands of years old) elves let their capital city (which is in the middle of the ocean) burn down after being hit by tiny catapults on a beach across the sea. I’d have to agree that their “Kaldorei Potential” really is ridiculous. It’s ridiculously horrible. I don’t know how they haven’t managed to extinct themselves yet. Makes me pity Elune for constantly having to watch over them like an overworked and over-stressed mother.

I think the Alliance should kick the Night Elves out of Stormwind. They are interfering with natural selection by keeping them alive. It’s survival of the fittest, and these elves are obviously unfit for the world (which they sundered). Let the Horde finish its work and wipe out the Elves before they hurt the planet again.

[Galenorn-wyrmrest-accord (Galenorn)]

Let the Horde finish its work and wipe out the Elves before they hurt the planet again.

How’s Outland doing these days? Or the mining operation going on, on the very wound that’s killing the planet?

[Orcguy-altar-of-storms]

Let the Horde finish its work and wipe out the Elves before they hurt the planet again.

How’s Outland doing these days? Or the mining operation going on, on the very wound that’s killing the planet?

Outland is what Azeroth will become if we let the elves live. They’ll probably explode the planet when they try to summon another cosmic horror who tricks them. Especially with all those void elves showing them all the tentacle power they can have if they reach into the void. The sword and the maelstrom are just proof that the elves will doom the world. The elves are unnecessary for the healing of the planet. Burn them all to death so we can end the war and focus on saving the world.

[Finalchaotic-hyjal (Finalchaotic)]

My point was mostly that Nyuambani was wrong, and Finalchaotic ironically came in to encourage Nyumbani by saying:

Someone else being dishonest, shouldn’t discourage you from championing a faction that you know and understand.

Everything else was tangential that at the very least was worthwhile conversation to have on the side.

Not sure how I encouraged him by telling him that he was incorrect on how humans learned magic to start with (which he dismissed) or that multiple generations are not responsible for what their founder did, before his redemption (which he dismissed) but see it however you wish.

Yes it was. Thank you for the respectful debate.

[Galenorn-wyrmrest-accord (Galenorn)]

Outland is what Azeroth will become if we let the Orcs live.

FTFY

The elves are unnecessary for the healing of the planet.

Oh good. Someone should go tell Broll he’s no longer needed at the Wound. That’ll be one more über-powerful Elf to help in Darkshore.

[Kollux-ragnaros]

The thing about it is, as the person you are replying to, feels that any “redeeming” qualities- is an Alliance only trait. This is why it’s easy to dismiss certain parts of lore that have said redeeming qualities and assert guilt by association. As someone who knows almost everything there is to know about Highborne/High elves (Us) lore, that’s not hard to see from his intent.

Nothing that i said is factually incorrect, i also expanded more about this on my own tread, you guys did summon a bunch of demons it was part of the course with experimenting with cosmic power, and like the suramaritans you realized they were bad news at the final stages of the war, in the meanwhile you keep indulging on your highborn tirades, after the war Dath’remar and the highborne that rebelled at the last moment were offered to stay with the rest of the elves, then he called Malfurion a coward for not wanting to use demon attracting magic, he made a storm to press his point and was exiled for his troubles, if something is not factually correct point it, also if you feel that way you are free to post about your own redeeming qualities so everybody knows.

Now, leaving the argument aside.
In character, as a night elf…
Im sick and tired of being called an arrogant elf BY THE HORDE and it wouldnt bother me too much because we arent… but what bothers me is that its YOU guys that are the arrogant elves, you and those high lipped nighborne, you guys were in the faction that had all the debauchery, inbreeding, magic and drug abuse in the time of the WoTA but i get called arrogant elf? Why?dont your allies know more about the origin of your faction and your ancestors? and we always get pinned with the “YOU GUYS CAUSED THE SUNDERING” but we didnt, EVERYONE that had hand in that mutated from night elf to any other type of…thing, being naga, a different elf, a half spider, undead spirit etc… you cant blame me for having certain animosity when i get accused of that when your faction started this demon summoning fiasco.

[Domrael-moon-guard]

I would consider it “repayed” if we just did a bit of Bronze Dragonflight shenanigans to undo it. That’s the only thing that would square it for me.