At the very least, Sylvanas must be captured and executed. This woman is basically the Lich King now, but with far less OP magic. Even if you describe her goals in the best light, she wants to repopulate her people (that is to say, make MORE corpses) and do good by the Horde (I think that one is BS personally, and it seems pretty clear most of the Horde leaders aren’t behind her methods and tactics anyways)
In a more extreme outcome, I think the Forsaken as a faction must be wiped out (which, let’s face, is not going to happen). The Forsaken as a whole are NOT conducive to a healthy Azeroth. It’s a sad thing to have to swallow, but if you died, that’s supposed to be it. You’re supposed to be gone. At the very least, they should make like Alonsus Faol, live in a quiet little corner and wait to decompose. I get it, you suffered a great tragedy and that sucks, but we can’t have walking corpses causing trouble anymore. No more chemical warfare through the Blight, no more mindless servants to a mad woman who wants to burn the whole world. No more. The Forsaken need to go, sooner or later.
In the most extreme case, I think the Horde needs to be disbanded. (Obviously this will not happen either) The friendlier races should be offered entrance into the Alliance (the Tauren, Pandaren, and maybe even the Blood Elves). The Orcs need to be taken into confinement and gradually reintroduced to the world. Who knows, in 100 years they may even join the Alliance too. I think we could manage the same system for the trolls. Goblins I think, honestly, throw most of them back into their Booty Bays or Gadgetzans. Let 'em muck about in trade and industrial work, step on some toes if we need to keep them from causing mayhem. As mentioned previously, the Forsaken have to go. Of course, anyone from any race who just refuses to accept otherwise peaceful disbanding (i know that’s a whole lot packed into a little phrase, I don’t have details, just outlining my thoughts on an outcome) should be dealt with by any means necessary.
As A member of the Horde, the burning down of Teldrassil is a nightmare, an action that is without honour and there for the leader who arranged and authorised it with all those who support are to be excuted. Stop.
As far as pay back well that would be just as bad as her act, and that should deserve the same punishment. Execution.
I am no fan of the Alliance, and could not see a time where we would be friends. What sort of friend allows the Burning Legion to burn down your city and destroy your most secret possesion, the Sun well. Or allow you City to be occupied by Troggs without assistance.
I can see a time in the future when we Horde clean up the filthy mess the lich king started when he created the undead army and pay back the murderers of the innocent people of Teldrassil and go back to reclaim and attempt to heal Draenor from the Draeni and light and send them back to Argus where they belong. The void is nothing to a unified hornor driven spiritual Horde army
see, a few years back I would have retorted that night elves were responsible for much more death by first bringing azeroth to Sargeras’ attention, and then the sundering, etc…
…but now we have nightborne in the horde who were even closer to that whole mess, and arguably more responsible.
So thats a thing.
Yeah, we didn’t execute Grom, the guy who first drank demon blood. And we didn’t execute Doomhammer, the guy who led us to conquer most of the eastern kingdoms despite knowing the horde only had this goal in the first place because we were being manipulated by gul’dan and his demon masters.
We don’t have a good track record of policing our own.
Regarding the undead we can agree it goes against all the laws of nature. The an entity without honour or justification to be alive allow the dead to rest. As a member of the Horde they are not welcome or should not be accepted. ( Create a new faction).
As far as the Alliance is concerned. Arrogance and vanity rule the very nature. They say one thing and do about. One does not allow allies city’s to be sacked. Quell’thalas or duty Troggs to run rampant and occupy you city Gnomeragan. Lordeoron us still not in the hands of the humans despite sacking of Undercity some years ago. No the Alliance is to vain and should be disbanded into their petty insignificant constituent components. If the want to find let the fight the void and reclaim Argus
I’d hate to be part of a group that’s constantly arrogantly preaching about how honorable we are, and how other people are so much less honorable than us.
Or one that, while preaching about how dishonorable it is to stab someone in the back, consistently employs rogues to backstab and poison guards.
Or one that has had their capital cities successfully besieged like, three times? I guess technically two since we blew the Undercity up ourselves.
Before the nightborne, you do realize that the bloodelves aka the HIGHBORNE were the ones that attracted demons to azeroth, and did so again teaching humans magic so they could kill your fellow trolls? i expand on this on my own tread, please Know your Elves you have 2 of them as your allies.
One of which turned on the Legion and joined the resistance. Unlike the other Highborne, he knew their mistake and took action against it. Which is the very father of High elves (Aka Sunstrinder). Don’t forget to mention that part.
In exchange for their life. They were given a choice between “Give us magic and we will help you” or “Don’t give us magic and we will let you die”. Don’t forget that part either.
See, once again a year ago i would have said I don’t blame the descendants of criminals for the crimes of their ancestors…
…but recently Blizzard retconned it so that high elves live a REALLY long time and there are some high/blood elves alive today who still remember being exiled for the war of the ancients.
so yeah, thats a thing. Blizzard is rapidly removing every reason I ever had for championing the horde.
The thing about it is, as the person you are replying to, feels that any “redeeming” qualities- is an Alliance only trait. This is why it’s easy to dismiss certain parts of lore that have said redeeming qualities and assert guilt by association. As someone who knows almost everything there is to know about Highborne/High elves (Us) lore, that’s not hard to see from his intent.
Someone else being dishonest, shouldn’t discourage you from championing a faction that you know and understand. That’s not very genuine of you to start with.
As far as blizzard is concerned, that’s true. Nothing is sacred anymore but that is something a player has to ride out or come to a realization of their own. The game just isn’t made for them anymore. It’s made for a buck.
then Grom and Doomhammer should not have been given that chance to “redeem” themselves. They led the horde to act dishonorably and thus should have been executed rather than be allowed to return to leadership.
At least, if we are holding them to the same standards we hold Sylvanas to.
Nyumbani is stating that a few years back Nyumbani would have called out the Night Elves for bringing Sargeras forces to Azeroth, however the Night Elves that would become the Alliance Night Elves were not part of the Highborne that attracted or brought the demons through the Well of Eternity, and were in fact the Night Elf Resistance you mentioned. The Highborne that would become the Blood Elves, including Dath’Remar Sunstrider, were part of the Azshara’s favored Night Elves that did use the Well of Eternity in such a way that both attracted Sargeras and tried to summon his demons and him through. You are correct that Dath’Remar Sunstrider and his followers did afterwards turn against the Legion and even saved Tyrande Whisperwind from Azshara in return for asking to be part of the Night Elf Resistance once they had fled from Azshara, which was their act of redemption, yes. However, this is not guilt by association, it is simply guilt. And redemption does not take place if one does not have something to redeem.
So when Nyumbani brings up who is more responsible, the Night Elves that would become the Alliance Night Elves are factually not responsible, and the Highborne that would become the Blood Elves and Nightborne are factually responsible, after which Dath’Remar Sunstrider and his followers sought redemption for, and those in Suramar just left everyone else for dead.
Neither are guilty of anything other than trying to find a way for their people to survive. They may have made some wrong choices in doing so, but both died heroic, honorable deaths.
Ok, I’m not entirely sure anymore what this particular thread of the conversation is about, but my point was this:
For a long time the night elves of the Alliance, while not necessarily THE people who caused the sundering, were the race closest to them. And so when we play the blame game pointing fingers at which race has caused the most death and tragedy on azeroth then at least we had that much to throw at the night elves.
Then the blood elves joined the horde and yes, they are the descendants of the highborne, but since at the time it was thought they were several generations removed it was easier to dismiss that connection. We don’t hold people accountable for their great-great-grandparent’s crimes, after all.
But now Blizzard has retconned it so that some blood elves actually remember being exiled for the War of the Ancients. They are That Freaking Old. So yeah, some of the highborne who helped Azshara might actually be blood elves on the horde now.
And every previous point is made moot because of addition of the nightborne. Now we definitely have a race on the horde that is far more culpable than the allaince night elves could ever be.
I used to enjoy playing horde and defending their point of view. I used to find them to have a fair balance of good and bad history, same as the Alliance. But over time Blizzard’s changes have removed everything sympathetic I saw in the horde, and also removed everything I saw worth fighting against in the Alliance.
If being descendants of the people responsible and being several generations removed dismisses the connection, how does being on entirely different family trees as the people responsible not dismiss that connection?
Yes. It is true that the Night elf resistance was not apart of Highborne (upper class) society. I never claimed that they were. I pointed out that the very Highborne (that he lumped together), did indeed rebel against the very forces that he accused them of ushering in. That dismissed this “redeeming” quality, out right. All because mentioning it, would hurt his baseless argument. Which is, in general, that the Highborne eventually led to the High elves and Thus, us being Horde.
As I said before: I know the Highborne (and High elven) lore very well.
Correct. And it is THIS redeeming quality that the poster dismissed.
As I said above: Lumping “All Highborne” together, is guilt by association. One can say that, while he was a part of the initial ushering, they can not THEN say that “ALL Highborne” continued to do such, by teaching magic to humans. Which is exactly what he did. While also dismissing WHY the humans were taught magic to start with.
Some syllogistic examples of guilt by association:
John is a con artist. John has black hair. Therefore, all people with black hair are con artists.
Lyle is a crooked salesman. Lyle proposes monorail. Therefore, monorail is folly.
Jane is good at mathematics. Jane is dyslexic. Therefore, all dyslexic people are good at mathematics. Simon, Karl, Jared, and Brett are all friends of Josh, and they are all petty criminals. Jill is a friend of Josh; therefore, Jill is a petty criminal.
I would like to know how it is any different than who I replied to, or your own comment?
Kollux specified Blood Elf Highborne, which you further specified with Dath’Remar Sunstrider. Dath’Remar Sunstrider and his followers were not guilty by association. They were in the group of mages that were summoning the Legion before the Legion turned on them and abused them. Dath’Remar Sunstrider and his followers, the ones that would become the Blood Elves, were just guilty, and hence needed the redemption to make up for it.
There isn’t any difference. Nyumbani was making an association fallacy in using the very guilt by association you’re bringing up. To use your format, Nyumbani was saying:
Highborne Night Elves summoned the Legion. Alliance has Night Elves. Therefore the Alliance summoned the Legion.